LIV Golf

[Backsticks]

It will be gone in a year

They cannot get a TV deal

No one is watching it

They can't get any top players to join

No one talks about LIV

It will be gone in a year
Well, it hasnt made it through a year yet, so that prediction is still not resolved.

They cannot get a TV deal
The commercial reality is that they still havent. Like giving away free tickets to have patrons for the tournaments, they have given away TV rights for free, not sold them as happens for normal sports deals. Lotus could become the biggest car seller in the world if they charged £0 per car.

No one is watching it
Yes, technically there are not literally zero spectators, so it is not true that no one is watching it. But for a venture purporting to be a major world spectator sport, its audience is still miniscule, and by that standard, it is broadly correct to say no one is watching it.

They can't get any top players to join
Following the initial flow of a handful of key players, and middle ranking filler, apart from Smith, they have had no one. It is true that since last July, they cant get any top players to join them. Lots of rumour in Q3, but nothing whatsoever happened following the spin doctor flyers that there would be an exodus after the end of the FedexCup. And nothing since. Not even hints of waverers. So thus far, they have not reached a critical mass to claim sporting credibility. And certainly at the moment, they cannot get any top players to join.

No one talks about LIV
This is certainly true. In the sense of LIV the sport. People are talking about LIV as a contest of culture/money/loudness/stars/growthegame with the PGAT. But not about the sport itself. At the moment, or last year at least, the soap opera was creating headlines. But it is true that no one talks about LIV golf competition itself.

 

[Backsticks]

Yes agree and so they should be and will continue to be for quite a while when your comparing one that has 70 years of history, where the viewer has formed an attachment to the product and one who is about to launch just its 9th event and isnt even 12 months old as a tour.

The fact that people want to make an apples for apples comparison shows what Liv has achieved in less than 12 months but its totally unfair.

Liv really needs till the end of the 2024 season at least before a fair reflection of where it is as a tour can be made.

It needs 15 players or so from (forget the OWGR) what fans and media regard as the worlds top 50 golfers. It needs to ditch the teams - a credibility shot in their own foot if ever there was one - its just too laughable. And they need to get on real TV in the major golf following countries. If it sorts those, yes, it can succeed. And I'm in.

 

[Bdill93]

How come the cricket start ups seem to do ok ?

Or indeed most other sports that have start ups ?

They all seem to get sponsers , media deals

Even the ESL had sponsorship backing and media deals sorted

Why do LIV seem to be the only sport start up that is struggling for it all and having to be bankrolled by a state to ensure it stays alive ?

I would assume (but don’t know) they go about getting funding and then put the event on. Don’t get me wrong, it probably would have been a better way to go about things from the offset but that’s clearly not Greg’s style.

LIV didn’t need funding at the start up stage, it has the cash to start and then worry about creating an income stream later.

I think they knew it’d be hard to crack into the world of golf as it’s very much set in its ways, better to produce the product and let the sponsors come to you than sit in a board room trying to convince them you’ll sign top players etc.

I don’t know if sponsors are coming this season (as they seemed to make out) or if they aren’t, but if they keep making noise then eventually it might be loud enough for people/ sponsors to listen - it also might not ?

 

[IainP]

Alan Shipnuck on latest podcast.

"been talking to Liv to try and find out who their new signings are. All I got was that the dates for announcements have been continually pushed back for months. I've no idea if they are going to rock the world with 3or4 huge signings or they are scrambling around desparately because they only have Mito Perreira right now. Top golf agent told me that players are being told to hold out so they up their offer as the tour start deadline gets nearer. Full 48 man field has to be secured before their 1st event because the teams have to be set in stone for the whole season in 2023."

Just opinion, but I'm not expecting 'huge signings' right now. After a shaky start I do think the PGAT have done a number of things right for them. Keeping Monahan away from the news (mostly), the purse changes, adding further non US players to the council, courting the Korean players...
- so right now the top PGAT guys/inner circle look pretty set I would think.
They may be able to temp some from a little further down.

Whether the new PGAT purses are sustainable medium term I would think would be a risk, but if it was a bit of a gamble can certainly understand going for it.

 

[Imurg]

Just opinion, but I'm not expecting 'huge signings' right now. After a shaky start I do think the PGAT have done a number of things right for them. Keeping Monahan away from the news (mostly), the purse changes, adding further non US players to the council, courting the Korean players...
- so right now the top PGAT guys/inner circle look pretty set I would think.
They may be able to temp some from a little further down.

Whether the new PGAT purses are sustainable medium term I would think would be a risk, but if it was a bit of a gamble can certainly understand going for it.

Can't argue with all of that..but where does that leave LIV with regard to "improving" their line-up?
Whispers that John Huh is about to sign....and most people are going John Who?
If that's the quality of player they're able to attract at the moment, with the greatest of respect to Mr Huh, it's not moving LIV forward.
If the likes of Brooks, Bryson et al don't perform that well in the Majors it makes it harder to attract the sponsors...who also need ratings to jump on board.
With about a month to their first event, it's all pretty quiet on the signing side of things.

 

[pauljames87]

Can't argue with all of that..but where does that leave LIV with regard to "improving" their line-up?
Whispers that John Huh is about to sign....and most people are going John Who?
If that's the quality of player they're able to attract at the moment, with the greatest of respect to Mr Huh, it's not moving LIV forward.
If the likes of Brooks, Bryson et al don't perform that well in the Majors it makes it harder to attract the sponsors...who also need ratings to jump on board.
With about a month to their first event, it's all pretty quiet on the signing side of things.

Would not surprise me in the slightest if a Liv player won a major this year

 

[IainP]

Can't argue with all of that..but where does that leave LIV with regard to "improving" their line-up?
Whispers that John Huh is about to sign....and most people are going John Who?
If that's the quality of player they're able to attract at the moment, with the greatest of respect to Mr Huh, it's not moving LIV forward.
If the likes of Brooks, Bryson et al don't perform that well in the Majors it makes it harder to attract the sponsors...who also need ratings to jump on board.
With about a month to their first event, it's all pretty quiet on the signing side of things.

Yeah, agree. There are so many unknowns. We've chatted before that entertaining golf doesn't necessarily need all the top guys, but the better/known golfers bring initial interest. Last year had the novelty factor. In some ways the media seemingly constantly plying the x verses y angle might oddly help liv.
Although I suspect a number of long time golf fans have stopped watching men's pro golf altogether.

 

[Liverpoolphil]

Yeah, agree. There are so many unknowns. We've chatted before that entertaining golf doesn't necessarily need all the top guys, but the better/known golfers bring initial interest. Last year had the novelty factor. In some ways the media seemingly constantly plying the x verses y angle might oddly help liv.
Although I suspect a number of long time golf fans have stopped watching men's pro golf altogether.

Most of the golfers mainly just watch the big events - The Majors , Ryder Cup , The Players and PGA at Wentworth beyond it will be maybe the odd event

This Top Golf thing that Rory and Woods are doing could grab some viewers as it is different but not sure how many will want to watch range stuff

Now the novelty of LIV has worn off and there are no real big players seemingly moving then it will just potter along and imo unless it became sustainable after a couple years will prob just stop

 

[Liverpoolphil]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618668500054327296

 

[evemccc]

No issue really with Sir Nick’s comments - everyone is entitled to an opinion

My questions though to those on this thread who are vehemently against LIV Golf…

Would you have the same narrative energy if the PGL (which Rory was explicitly not against…despite it being a ‘closed-shop’) had got off the ground?

You’re against it because of “SA and human-rights abuses” OR you’re against it because it’s “not a real-tour and it’s a closed-shop”

Both are valid positions..

But what then re: the PGL? And what about the DP World Tour and SA, and dealing with other countries and regimes either through sponsorship or touring there with almost as equally not great human rights abuses…

I for one doubt anyone would have bated an eyelid if the PGL had got off the ground and Rory, JT, Spieth, DJ and Smith had joined in - and it was a closed-shop. The Country-Club kids at No Laying Up would be front and centre cheerleaders for it..

It’s blatant self-interest and hypocrisy from many in the US golf world and it’s painfully obvious

 

[Liverpoolphil]

No issue really with Sir Nick’s comments - everyone is entitled to an opinion

My questions though to those on this thread who are vehemently against LIV Golf…

Would you have the same narrative energy if the PGL (which Rory was explicitly not against…despite it being a ‘closed-shop’) had got off the ground?

You’re against it because of “SA and human-rights abuses” OR you’re against it because it’s “not a real-tour and it’s a closed-shop”

Both are valid positions..

But what then re: the PGL? And what about the DP World Tour and SA, and dealing with other countries and regimes either through sponsorship or touring there with almost as equally not great human rights abuses…

What is the PGL ? I have no idea what it is or was

And yes I have a big issue with The European Tour selling out to “DP World”

 

[evemccc]

What is the PGL ? I have no idea what it is or was

And yes I have a big issue with The European Tour selling out to “DP World”

Basically LIV Golf - just using funding from the Saudis but explicitly not Saudi-run

The Saudi’s nicked their idea. There’s an interview about 2 years ago on NLU with them when they were trying to get it off the ground

 

[evemccc]

@Liverpoolphil https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthe...-everything-you-need-to-know/?sh=7be981ff7b73

 

[Liverpoolphil]

Basically LIV Golf - just using funding from the Saudis but explicitly not Saudi-run

The Saudi’s nicked their idea. There’s an interview about 2 years ago on NLU with them when they were trying to get it off the ground

This ?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/what-is-the-premier-golf-league

“With the rumoured Saudi-backed Super League causing controversy as to the origin of the funds, the wealth of the PGL is said to be funded through private equity and high net worth individuals in the United States and not Saudi Arabia or other sovereign wealth funds.”

 

[Swango1980]

No issue really with Sir Nick’s comments - everyone is entitled to an opinion

My questions though to those on this thread who are vehemently against LIV Golf…

Would you have the same narrative energy if the PGL (which Rory was explicitly not against…despite it being a ‘closed-shop’) had got off the ground?

You’re against it because of “SA and human-rights abuses” OR you’re against it because it’s “not a real-tour and it’s a closed-shop”

Both are valid positions..

But what then re: the PGL? And what about the DP World Tour and SA, and dealing with other countries and regimes either through sponsorship or touring there with almost as equally not great human rights abuses…

I for one doubt anyone would have bated an eyelid if the PGL had got off the ground and Rory, JT, Spieth, DJ and Smith had joined in - and it was a closed-shop. The Country-Club kids at No Laying Up would be front and centre cheerleaders for it..

It’s blatant self-interest and hypocrisy from many in the US golf world and it’s painfully obvious

Not heard of the PGL, but if it was a closed shop, not good in my opinion.

I'm less concerned about money coming from Middle East, as I've mentioned before. Although if money is just thrown at something to begin with, I wonder how that business will become sustainable once someone wants to pull the money on the cash. Will there be enough interest in the business model to keep it going?

 

[evemccc]

This ?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/what-is-the-premier-golf-league

“With the rumoured Saudi-backed Super League causing controversy as to the origin of the funds, the wealth of the PGL is said to be funded through private equity and high net worth individuals in the United States and not Saudi Arabia or other sovereign wealth funds.”

The Forbes article will give better context IMO. Private equity and Saudi

 

[Backsticks]

The last thing we need is yet another tour try causing further splits in the worlds best golfers.

 

[Liverpoolphil]

The Forbes article will give better context IMO. Private equity and Saudi

It’s also 3 years old ?‍♂️

https://www.todays-golfer.com/news-...trying-to-partner-with-and-save-the-pga-tour/

“Andrew Gardiner always suspected this day would come. For a while, the Saudis used to be part of his plan for a Premier Golf League (PGL) before he decided they were better off without them. He insists he isn’t angry that his former partners pursued a copy-cat format. He actually considers it a compliment, an endorsement that his concept works. “

 

[evemccc]

It’s also 3 years old ?‍♂️

“

So what? I said it was all PRE Liv — do you have to try and have an argument about every little thing.. jeez??‍♂️?

You’ll have read (or perhaps not) that Rory was in conversations with them about a 48-man elite closed shop from 2014…

 

[Liverpoolphil]

So what? I said it was all PRE Liv — do you have to try and have an argument about every little thing.. jeez??‍♂️?

You’ll have read (or perhaps not) that Rory was in conversations with them about a 48-man elite closed shop from 2014…

Surely it’s better to look at the current situation as opposed to 3 years ago ? You mentioned it was being financed by Saudi etc where as the more up to date articles state it isn’t ?‍♂️

Also it seem they are discussing with the PGA etc about how they can work together - so it’s seems to be in the current situation the opposite of LIV