LIV Golf

Wabinez

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real broadcasters at all except for CW
a non-Nielsen rated channel, where viewer numbers aren't reported on. Unlike YouTube where you could see the 12000 people 'watching' it.

Seems a good move to take it away from a platform where 6 billion people could watch, to a platform that very few have access to.

Laughable.
 

Swango1980

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Jul 22, 2019
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The bolded part @Swango1980 - ??

You really seem unable to have a difference of opinion without throwing in personal pejoratives and barbs alongside every comment you make….

@Mel Smooth is right with this IMO, Rahm has handled himself well and been the ‘adult in the PGA room’….

Rory has demanded a CEO be removed and been wildly and hopelessly wrong with his “dead in the water comments” - which smacks of creating a narrative and attempting to convince his peers not to leave, but not representative of truthful reality

Rory by almost all accounts is a stand-up guy in real life — and I prefer him to Rahm as a golfer and in general — but @Mel Smooth has this one correct on Rory / Rahm re: LIV
Are you spitting your dummy out now as well?

You do realise that the phrase I used was simply a well used expression. An expression I was using to generally describe that many, if not nearly all strong LIV fans are going to get upset with anyone who is critical of them. They are upset with what Rory said, so maybe they are the ones that don't accept he has a difference of opinion. He has been strong in what he has said, but also measured.

Yet, the biggest voice for LIV in this thread called him a "bellend". Would you describe that person as being able to accept a difference of opinion, and not getting personal? Or, do you only offer such criticism to people if they disagree with yours?

As I said, the only way Rory would be in the position he is would be if he had a high reputation within the game. Before LIV, his reputation was good. Since LIV, it has generally increased to another level, otherwise fewer and fewer people would respect what he says. The fact that LIV fans call him a "bellend" says more about them than McIlroy.
 

Bdill93

Undisputed King of FOMO
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a non-Nielsen rated channel, where viewer numbers aren't reported on. Unlike YouTube where you could see the 12000 people 'watching' it.

Seems a good move to take it away from a platform where 6 billion people could watch, to a platform that very few have access to.

Laughable.
The channel itself is laughable yes but I'm pretty sure if youtube was the better option for viewership, the PGA tour would also be on it.

There aren't 6 billion golf fans..
 

Wabinez

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The channel itself is laughable yes but I'm pretty sure if youtube was the better option for viewership, the PGA tour would also be on it.

There aren't 6 billion golf fans..
I didn't say there were 6 billion golf fans...but there are plenty more people who could 'stumble' across it on YouTube than there are who can't access CW at all. The whole thing is a joke, and it is definitely lacking any kind of juice or news considering we are only a couple of weeks away from the first event. No new signings (aside from maybe Mito Pereira, who, quite frankly, no-one gives a monkeys about).

PGAT also don't need to get on YouTube, considering they have companies giving them hundreds of millions for a TV contract. There is no money going to LIV for holding the rights to TV broadcast. Why would you reduce your potential audience numbers for no benefit? Oh yeah...so you can lie about the viewer numbers as the channel is not Nielsen rated, and doesn't display viewership to everyone quite clearly.

LIV deserve credit for getting it broadcastable last year....so far this year, it's looking like a joke
 
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It seems some people are still of the understanding that LIV won’t be on You Tube and/or streamed through the website.

It will, unless a media deal can be arranged in other specific countries as has happened in the USA.
It will still be available globally - to billions of potential viewers.

Also, LIV are wanting to release their viewer numbers despite that information not being recorded through Nielsen on CW’s weekend broadcasts - of course the accuracy of those figures will be debated, but the figures will be available
 

AussieKB

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I love reading all the anti LIV replies, it will be gone in a year, not it's not, they cannot get a TV deal, but they have, no one is watching it, but they are, they ant get any top players to join, but they have, and the best no one talks about LIV but guess what, just read this comment section........so keep it up please as I need a good laugh.
 

Bdill93

Undisputed King of FOMO
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I didn't say there were 6 billion golf fans...but there are plenty more people who could 'stumble' across it on YouTube than there are who can't access CW at all. The whole thing is a joke, and it is definitely lacking any kind of juice or news considering we are only a couple of weeks away from the first event. No new signings (aside from maybe Mito Pereira, who, quite frankly, no-one gives a monkeys about).

PGAT also don't need to get on YouTube, considering they have companies giving them hundreds of millions for a TV contract. There is no money going to LIV for holding the rights to TV broadcast. Why would you reduce your potential audience numbers for no benefit? Oh yeah...so you can lie about the viewer numbers as the channel is not Nielsen rated, and doesn't display viewership to everyone quite clearly.

LIV deserve credit for getting it broadcastable last year....so far this year, it's looking like a joke
The Algorithm doesn't really work like that but I see the point you're trying to make.

They are gaining ad revenue from going onto TV, its a start, Rome wasn't built in a day. If you were the CEO of a major sports network would you replace established events on your TV schedule for LIV? Nah, so what more did you expect at this point?

Lying about viewer numbers is hardly news, and no one really cares how many viewers they have lets be honest. They wont be expecting to compete with a PGA tour event for a number of years.

PIF are not idiots, they wont believe lies from Greg, they will want to see improvements and forward momentum or they will pull the plug.

The lack of new signings is poor I agree, they need to splash some cash and take even bigger names.
 

Wabinez

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they need to splash some cash and take even bigger names.
They need to be fired into the sun. I very much doubt any 'big' names will now make the jump. The changes to OWGR, the lack of OWGR points for LIV (unless they make massive changes to the whole product), the changes PGAT have made for the bigger names to compete more against each other etc is only going to boost the PGAT product.

You'd have to be an idiot to take anything now, unless you knew you would never win on the PGAT, and so, you aren't really a big name to worry about.
 

BiMGuy

LIV Bot, (But Not As Big As Mel) ?
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Messages
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I love reading all the anti LIV replies, it will be gone in a year, not it's not, they cannot get a TV deal, but they have, no one is watching it, but they are, they ant get any top players to join, but they have, and the best no one talks about LIV but guess what, just read this comment section........so keep it up please as I need a good laugh.
The good laugh is the spin coming from LiV and it’s fans.

Well done for securing a TV deal that LiV are paying for. Remind me again how much the other tours pay Sky to show their events. ?
 

Swango1980

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Messages
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I love reading all the anti LIV replies, it will be gone in a year, not it's not, they cannot get a TV deal, but they have, no one is watching it, but they are, they ant get any top players to join, but they have, and the best no one talks about LIV but guess what, just read this comment section........so keep it up please as I need a good laugh.
I'm glad you are enjoying the read. So, I'm sure we'll keep it up by making good points. And, no doubt the pro LIV fans will do what they do best, by completely shifting the context of any debate by trying to make it sound LIV are the best thing to ever happen to golf. In relation to your points:

It will be gone in a year
Did anyone say it would be gone in a year, or two, or three? I don't think so, we all recognise they've invested so heavily in it, still have large amounts they can throw at it, that it wasn't just going to vanish in a puff of smoke within a year. I think the bigger discussion was "where will it be in a year", with many thinking it would still struggle to make a break through into the wider golfing audience, and truly be competing the the major tours that currently exist. I don't think much has changed to have that opinion by many changed.

They cannot get a TV deal
They didn't have a TV deal when those comments were being made, surely that was just a fact? Or do those not matter to you? No one ever said they would never ever get a TV deal in any location around the world. That would be a huge stretch. The argument, again, was more about would LIV be able to bet a major TV deal from a large broadcaster, a big sign a broadcaster is willing to invest in it as there is a market for it amongst viewers. So, the US equivalent of Dave getting a LIV deal is not really enough to say "I told you so" to the people highlighting that LIV was struggling to get a TV deal. But, if it is something LIV fans are buzzing about, no problem. Enjoy.

No one is watching it
Not correct, we all now for a fact that you and Mel Smooth are watching it for starters. However, if you are happy enough that 10-20 people around the world are watching LIV, then fine. It is good that you are happy. I think most people have simply highlighted that there are a relatively low number of people watching LIV in comparison to other golf they could be watching.

They can't get any top players to join
Again, weird comment when most in here have acknowledged the likes of Cameron Smith, Bryson DeChambeau and Brooks Koepka being top players. Once Dustin Johnsen joined, it was a sign that some of the higher level players may switch. However, just because it has 4 or 5 better players (at the time of joining), cannot dismiss the fact that many of the worlds best players have not yet shifted across. That most of the field is made up of little known players, or players that were good in the 1990's / 2000's. And, how will the players, that were top players when joining, develop their skills when up against such opposition and guaranteed mega income, regardless of performance? We can only hypothesise on that for now.

No one talks about LIV
Another odd comment, as we are all talking about LIV. I think the actual comment is that few are talking about the golf in LIV, or any positive aspects about it. Its nearly all politics. Loads of people are talking about Russia now and Covid19 not so long ago. That didn't automatically mean people were giving either topic the thumbs up.
 
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I'm glad you are enjoying the read. So, I'm sure we'll keep it up by making good points. And, no doubt the pro LIV fans will do what they do best, by completely shifting the context of any debate by trying to make it sound LIV are the best thing to ever happen to golf. In relation to your points:

It will be gone in a year
Did anyone say it would be gone in a year, or two, or three? I don't think so, we all recognise they've invested so heavily in it, still have large amounts they can throw at it, that it wasn't just going to vanish in a puff of smoke within a year. I think the bigger discussion was "where will it be in a year", with many thinking it would still struggle to make a break through into the wider golfing audience, and truly be competing the the major tours that currently exist. I don't think much has changed to have that opinion by many changed.

They cannot get a TV deal
They didn't have a TV deal when those comments were being made, surely that was just a fact? Or do those not matter to you? No one ever said they would never ever get a TV deal in any location around the world. That would be a huge stretch. The argument, again, was more about would LIV be able to bet a major TV deal from a large broadcaster, a big sign a broadcaster is willing to invest in it as there is a market for it amongst viewers. So, the US equivalent of Dave getting a LIV deal is not really enough to say "I told you so" to the people highlighting that LIV was struggling to get a TV deal. But, if it is something LIV fans are buzzing about, no problem. Enjoy.

No one is watching it
Not correct, we all now for a fact that you and Mel Smooth are watching it for starters. However, if you are happy enough that 10-20 people around the world are watching LIV, then fine. It is good that you are happy. I think most people have simply highlighted that there are a relatively low number of people watching LIV in comparison to other golf they could be watching.

They can't get any top players to join
Again, weird comment when most in here have acknowledged the likes of Cameron Smith, Bryson DeChambeau and Brooks Koepka being top players. Once Dustin Johnsen joined, it was a sign that some of the higher level players may switch. However, just because it has 4 or 5 better players (at the time of joining), cannot dismiss the fact that many of the worlds best players have not yet shifted across. That most of the field is made up of little known players, or players that were good in the 1990's / 2000's. And, how will the players, that were top players when joining, develop their skills when up against such opposition and guaranteed mega income, regardless of performance? We can only hypothesise on that for now.

No one talks about LIV
Another odd comment, as we are all talking about LIV. I think the actual comment is that few are talking about the golf in LIV, or any positive aspects about it. Its nearly all politics. Loads of people are talking about Russia now and Covid19 not so long ago. That didn't automatically mean people were giving either topic the thumbs up.
Well summed up
 
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754
The LIV tv deal (USA only) is interesting, especially as it comes at a time when Youtube golf output is outperforming PGAT events (certain metrics, certainly not like for like). I appreciate LIV need to find a way to generate income etc., but there is an argument that moving to a broadcaster isn't necessarily going to get it done.

As things stand at the start of this year, the PGAT has had a series of events, including an 'elevated' event, with 'stars' like Rahm and Shuffler playing. However, TV (USA) viewership is down by about 20-25%. European Tour events and, for the same events, the PGAT on Sky appear to be attracting shockingly low numbers... between 10k to 15k per day (. Compared to the views being achieved by Rick Shiels and all the Youtubers, there does appear to be a shift in traditional golf consumption. This has also been recognised by manufacturers and how the US based Youtubers are being treated by Callaway and Taylormade. Good Good (even excluding their extensions of GG Labs, GG Extra, Podcast etc. and individual channels (GM Golf etc.)) and Bod Does Sports are generating, on a weekly basis, larger figures. No wonder signed Callaway players are being 'forced' to appear in an increasing number of Golf Youtuber channels.

Sky might well be worried, not that they ever give out 'figures' - they only talk percentages when there has been a percentage increase.... in general Sky Golf achieves around 1m (December) to 3m (April / July) average monthly viewers so the January '23 daily is worringly low (McIlroy might shift that 'needle' a bit tomorrow); the other concern is that on average, viewers are currently only hanging around for 5minutes or so - in general, previously, this tended to be in excess of 30 minutes. Despite what anyone feels about LIV (and they might fail), the traditional method of viewing the traditional golfing output is in a declining situation.... the missing-Tiger Effect. Younger viewers are drawn to the more diverse personalities that Youtube allows. I've never been a fine of Rick Shiels per se, but he has nearly 2.5m subscribers; however, more interestingly, he has on average about 300,000 people watching videos on his channel every day - whether he has released a video or not. Sky had 4,000 people the European Tour last Thursday.

Basically, this is a long winded way of saying, LIV might have been better sticking with Youtube and that all golfing tours have an output dilemma going into 2023, just trying to keep viewers. It will not surprise me at all if the McIlroy / Woods venture (still 12 months away!) includes people like Fat Perez, Garret Clarke, R Shiels, Claire Hogle, etc., within their team make-up.

{Someone asked when McIlroy has ever tarnished his reputation with his views.... I mean, all the time... views on the Ryder Cup (since changed), views on the Olympics (since changed), views on and association with Trump (since changed), views on Nationality (since evolved), views on how to break up with someone, views on dentistry as it relates to whether you complete a round etc. Reputations get tarnished and rebuilt constantly. I still love him, but he is, occasionally, his own worst enemy and certainly not without controversy.}
 

TheBigDraw

Medal Winner
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505
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For me its all just pro tour golf.

I enjoying watching the Pros play.

Really enjoyed Victor Perez's win last week on the DPWT, that bunker shot on 17 was insane.
The great PGA Tour events are coming up, then were into The Masters and Liv events are there to watch in between now and offer something a bit different to what we have been given for the last 70 years which I think is not necessarily a bad thing for the sport.

I will give Rory and Tigers stadium golf a watch when it arrives, no idea right now if im going to like that,
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
7,132
The LIV tv deal (USA only) is interesting, especially as it comes at a time when Youtube golf output is outperforming PGAT events (certain metrics, certainly not like for like). I appreciate LIV need to find a way to generate income etc., but there is an argument that moving to a broadcaster isn't necessarily going to get it done.

As things stand at the start of this year, the PGAT has had a series of events, including an 'elevated' event, with 'stars' like Rahm and Shuffler playing. However, TV (USA) viewership is down by about 20-25%. European Tour events and, for the same events, the PGAT on Sky appear to be attracting shockingly low numbers... between 10k to 15k per day (. Compared to the views being achieved by Rick Shiels and all the Youtubers, there does appear to be a shift in traditional golf consumption. This has also been recognised by manufacturers and how the US based Youtubers are being treated by Callaway and Taylormade. Good Good (even excluding their extensions of GG Labs, GG Extra, Podcast etc. and individual channels (GM Golf etc.)) and Bod Does Sports are generating, on a weekly basis, larger figures. No wonder signed Callaway players are being 'forced' to appear in an increasing number of Golf Youtuber channels.

Sky might well be worried, not that they ever give out 'figures' - they only talk percentages when there has been a percentage increase.... in general Sky Golf achieves around 1m (December) to 3m (April / July) average monthly viewers so the January '23 daily is worringly low (McIlroy might shift that 'needle' a bit tomorrow); the other concern is that on average, viewers are currently only hanging around for 5minutes or so - in general, previously, this tended to be in excess of 30 minutes. Despite what anyone feels about LIV (and they might fail), the traditional method of viewing the traditional golfing output is in a declining situation.... the missing-Tiger Effect. Younger viewers are drawn to the more diverse personalities that Youtube allows. I've never been a fine of Rick Shiels per se, but he has nearly 2.5m subscribers; however, more interestingly, he has on average about 300,000 people watching videos on his channel every day - whether he has released a video or not. Sky had 4,000 people the European Tour last Thursday.

Basically, this is a long winded way of saying, LIV might have been better sticking with Youtube and that all golfing tours have an output dilemma going into 2023, just trying to keep viewers. It will not surprise me at all if the McIlroy / Woods venture (still 12 months away!) includes people like Fat Perez, Garret Clarke, R Shiels, Claire Hogle, etc., within their team make-up.

{Someone asked when McIlroy has ever tarnished his reputation with his views.... I mean, all the time... views on the Ryder Cup (since changed), views on the Olympics (since changed), views on and association with Trump (since changed), views on Nationality (since evolved), views on how to break up with someone, views on dentistry as it relates to whether you complete a round etc. Reputations get tarnished and rebuilt constantly. I still love him, but he is, occasionally, his own worst enemy and certainly not without controversy.}
In relation to Sky being worried about viewing figures in golf, I'm not sure it quite works like that. Certainly when you talk about individual events.

Sky customers invest in the Sports Package, usually because they are interested in several sports Sky have rights to. In terms of their total customer database, I'm not sure how many people invest purely for the golf. I suspect reasonably low. Of the people that do invest because of the golf, or that is one of the things that pushes them over the line to invest, they are doing so effectively for the possibility to watch any of the golf Sky have over the year. It means they can tune in to majors, WGCs, PGAT and DPWT as and when they please. Having golf virtually every weekend is a nice option for customers to have. But, that doesn't mean they are tuning in to watch every single golf event on Sky. I'm sure Sky don't expect overly high viewing figures for some December / January tour event on one of the Major Tours. But, it is all part of the full season package. If they were paying millions and millions for each single event, then they may be more concerned. Especially if those events were costing them just as much as bigger events in the summer.

Furthermore, having these events broadcast every weekend gives them prime slots for certain brands to pay for advertising. If a major golf brand wanted to invest a ton of money in advertising, I'm guessing going to Sky TV and paying to advertise during the golf broadcasting is quite attractive for them.

I'm not sure you can compare broadcasting of live golf, with YouTube influencers? Youtube channels post content that can be watched at any time. Some utterly bizarre youTube influencers can gain a following. Some Talksport videos have millions of views, and there will be many sporting youTube videos with tens of millions of views. I'm not sure that means these sports should be looking to broadcast their live events on youTube. Unless LIV have dropped on a successful business plan that no other major sport has ever considered?

I suspect the best ways to compare how well a sporting brand / enterprise is doing is by how much money they bring in. The more money they bring in, the more interest they are getting. I'd genuinely love to know how much the PGAT and DPWT bring in from broadcasting money, sponsorship and gate receipts. And compare those numbers what LIV bring in.
 

Bdill93

Undisputed King of FOMO
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In relation to Sky being worried about viewing figures in golf, I'm not sure it quite works like that. Certainly when you talk about individual events.

Sky customers invest in the Sports Package, usually because they are interested in several sports Sky have rights to. In terms of their total customer database, I'm not sure how many people invest purely for the golf. I suspect reasonably low. Of the people that do invest because of the golf, or that is one of the things that pushes them over the line to invest, they are doing so effectively for the possibility to watch any of the golf Sky have over the year. It means they can tune in to majors, WGCs, PGAT and DPWT as and when they please. Having golf virtually every weekend is a nice option for customers to have. But, that doesn't mean they are tuning in to watch every single golf event on Sky. I'm sure Sky don't expect overly high viewing figures for some December / January tour event on one of the Major Tours. But, it is all part of the full season package. If they were paying millions and millions for each single event, then they may be more concerned. Especially if those events were costing them just as much as bigger events in the summer.

Furthermore, having these events broadcast every weekend gives them prime slots for certain brands to pay for advertising. If a major golf brand wanted to invest a ton of money in advertising, I'm guessing going to Sky TV and paying to advertise during the golf broadcasting is quite attractive for them.

I'm not sure you can compare broadcasting of live golf, with YouTube influencers? Youtube channels post content that can be watched at any time. Some utterly bizarre youTube influencers can gain a following. Some Talksport videos have millions of views, and there will be many sporting youTube videos with tens of millions of views. I'm not sure that means these sports should be looking to broadcast their live events on youTube. Unless LIV have dropped on a successful business plan that no other major sport has ever considered?

I suspect the best ways to compare how well a sporting brand / enterprise is doing is by how much money they bring in. The more money they bring in, the more interest they are getting. I'd genuinely love to know how much the PGAT and DPWT bring in from broadcasting money, sponsorship and gate receipts. And compare those numbers what LIV bring in.
I mean you're not really comparing Apples with Apples at this stage by comparing the most established golf tour in the world and LIV's income. Its like comparing Tesla and Volta trucks..

Start ups take time and often don't profit for years, why does everyone think they need profit now, its going to take years to build something up from nothing.
 

Liverpoolphil

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I mean you're not really comparing Apples with Apples at this stage by comparing the most established golf tour in the world and LIV's income. Its like comparing Tesla and Volta trucks..

Start ups take time and often don't profit for years, why does everyone think they need profit now, its going to take years to build something up from nothing.
How come the cricket start ups seem to do ok ?

Or indeed most other sports that have start ups ?

They all seem to get sponsers , media deals

Even the ESL had sponsorship backing and media deals sorted

Why do LIV seem to be the only sport start up that is struggling for it all and having to be bankrolled by a state to ensure it stays alive ?
 

cleveland52

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
131
I'm glad you are enjoying the read. So, I'm sure we'll keep it up by making good points. And, no doubt the pro LIV fans will do what they do best, by completely shifting the context of any debate by trying to make it sound LIV are the best thing to ever happen to golf. In relation to your points:

It will be gone in a year
Did anyone say it would be gone in a year, or two, or three? I don't think so, we all recognise they've invested so heavily in it, still have large amounts they can throw at it, that it wasn't just going to vanish in a puff of smoke within a year. I think the bigger discussion was "where will it be in a year", with many thinking it would still struggle to make a break through into the wider golfing audience, and truly be competing the the major tours that currently exist. I don't think much has changed to have that opinion by many changed.

They cannot get a TV deal
They didn't have a TV deal when those comments were being made, surely that was just a fact? Or do those not matter to you? No one ever said they would never ever get a TV deal in any location around the world. That would be a huge stretch. The argument, again, was more about would LIV be able to bet a major TV deal from a large broadcaster, a big sign a broadcaster is willing to invest in it as there is a market for it amongst viewers. So, the US equivalent of Dave getting a LIV deal is not really enough to say "I told you so" to the people highlighting that LIV was struggling to get a TV deal. But, if it is something LIV fans are buzzing about, no problem. Enjoy.

No one is watching it
Not correct, we all now for a fact that you and Mel Smooth are watching it for starters. However, if you are happy enough that 10-20 people around the world are watching LIV, then fine. It is good that you are happy. I think most people have simply highlighted that there are a relatively low number of people watching LIV in comparison to other golf they could be watching.

They can't get any top players to join
Again, weird comment when most in here have acknowledged the likes of Cameron Smith, Bryson DeChambeau and Brooks Koepka being top players. Once Dustin Johnsen joined, it was a sign that some of the higher level players may switch. However, just because it has 4 or 5 better players (at the time of joining), cannot dismiss the fact that many of the worlds best players have not yet shifted across. That most of the field is made up of little known players, or players that were good in the 1990's / 2000's. And, how will the players, that were top players when joining, develop their skills when up against such opposition and guaranteed mega income, regardless of performance? We can only hypothesise on that for now.

No one talks about LIV
Another odd comment, as we are all talking about LIV. I think the actual comment is that few are talking about the golf in LIV, or any positive aspects about it. Its nearly all politics. Loads of people are talking about Russia now and Covid19 not so long ago. That didn't automatically mean people were giving either topic the thumbs up.
This is the reality of the situation.
 

Swango1980

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Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
7,132
I mean you're not really comparing Apples with Apples at this stage by comparing the most established golf tour in the world and LIV's income. Its like comparing Tesla and Volta trucks..

Start ups take time and often don't profit for years, why does everyone think they need profit now, its going to take years to build something up from nothing.
I appreciate this. I wasn't saying I was interested so that, when I see the figures, I can so "you see, the PGA is miles better..."

I just said it would be interesting to actually know exactly what the figures are. Then see them on a year by year basis. See if the PGAT and DPWT are remaining stable, going up or going down. Seeing if we can also see any trends with LIV.

I think we all know that LIVs figures will be miles down on the PGAT at the moment. But, presumably if LIV genuinely wants to rival the PGAT as one of the worlds leading golf tours, then they'd like to eventually have a target of making the same amount of money. That would be a good indicator that LIV is reaching the same success as the current leading tours. But, I've no idea of their time frame. 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?
 

TheBigDraw

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505
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I think we all know that LIVs figures will be miles down on the PGAT at the moment.
Yes agree and so they should be and will continue to be for quite a while when your comparing one that has 70 years of history, where the viewer has formed an attachment to the product and one who is about to launch just its 9th event and isnt even 12 months old as a tour.

The fact that people want to make an apples for apples comparison shows what Liv has achieved in less than 12 months but its totally unfair.

Liv really needs till the end of the 2024 season at least before a fair reflection of where it is as a tour can be made.
 
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