LIV Golf

[Swango1980]

The LIV tv deal (USA only) is interesting, especially as it comes at a time when Youtube golf output is outperforming PGAT events (certain metrics, certainly not like for like). I appreciate LIV need to find a way to generate income etc., but there is an argument that moving to a broadcaster isn't necessarily going to get it done.

As things stand at the start of this year, the PGAT has had a series of events, including an 'elevated' event, with 'stars' like Rahm and Shuffler playing. However, TV (USA) viewership is down by about 20-25%. European Tour events and, for the same events, the PGAT on Sky appear to be attracting shockingly low numbers... between 10k to 15k per day (. Compared to the views being achieved by Rick Shiels and all the Youtubers, there does appear to be a shift in traditional golf consumption. This has also been recognised by manufacturers and how the US based Youtubers are being treated by Callaway and Taylormade. Good Good (even excluding their extensions of GG Labs, GG Extra, Podcast etc. and individual channels (GM Golf etc.)) and Bod Does Sports are generating, on a weekly basis, larger figures. No wonder signed Callaway players are being 'forced' to appear in an increasing number of Golf Youtuber channels.

Sky might well be worried, not that they ever give out 'figures' - they only talk percentages when there has been a percentage increase.... in general Sky Golf achieves around 1m (December) to 3m (April / July) average monthly viewers so the January '23 daily is worringly low (McIlroy might shift that 'needle' a bit tomorrow); the other concern is that on average, viewers are currently only hanging around for 5minutes or so - in general, previously, this tended to be in excess of 30 minutes. Despite what anyone feels about LIV (and they might fail), the traditional method of viewing the traditional golfing output is in a declining situation.... the missing-Tiger Effect. Younger viewers are drawn to the more diverse personalities that Youtube allows. I've never been a fine of Rick Shiels per se, but he has nearly 2.5m subscribers; however, more interestingly, he has on average about 300,000 people watching videos on his channel every day - whether he has released a video or not. Sky had 4,000 people the European Tour last Thursday.

Basically, this is a long winded way of saying, LIV might have been better sticking with Youtube and that all golfing tours have an output dilemma going into 2023, just trying to keep viewers. It will not surprise me at all if the McIlroy / Woods venture (still 12 months away!) includes people like Fat Perez, Garret Clarke, R Shiels, Claire Hogle, etc., within their team make-up.

{Someone asked when McIlroy has ever tarnished his reputation with his views.... I mean, all the time... views on the Ryder Cup (since changed), views on the Olympics (since changed), views on and association with Trump (since changed), views on Nationality (since evolved), views on how to break up with someone, views on dentistry as it relates to whether you complete a round etc. Reputations get tarnished and rebuilt constantly. I still love him, but he is, occasionally, his own worst enemy and certainly not without controversy.}

In relation to Sky being worried about viewing figures in golf, I'm not sure it quite works like that. Certainly when you talk about individual events.

Sky customers invest in the Sports Package, usually because they are interested in several sports Sky have rights to. In terms of their total customer database, I'm not sure how many people invest purely for the golf. I suspect reasonably low. Of the people that do invest because of the golf, or that is one of the things that pushes them over the line to invest, they are doing so effectively for the possibility to watch any of the golf Sky have over the year. It means they can tune in to majors, WGCs, PGAT and DPWT as and when they please. Having golf virtually every weekend is a nice option for customers to have. But, that doesn't mean they are tuning in to watch every single golf event on Sky. I'm sure Sky don't expect overly high viewing figures for some December / January tour event on one of the Major Tours. But, it is all part of the full season package. If they were paying millions and millions for each single event, then they may be more concerned. Especially if those events were costing them just as much as bigger events in the summer.

Furthermore, having these events broadcast every weekend gives them prime slots for certain brands to pay for advertising. If a major golf brand wanted to invest a ton of money in advertising, I'm guessing going to Sky TV and paying to advertise during the golf broadcasting is quite attractive for them.

I'm not sure you can compare broadcasting of live golf, with YouTube influencers? Youtube channels post content that can be watched at any time. Some utterly bizarre youTube influencers can gain a following. Some Talksport videos have millions of views, and there will be many sporting youTube videos with tens of millions of views. I'm not sure that means these sports should be looking to broadcast their live events on youTube. Unless LIV have dropped on a successful business plan that no other major sport has ever considered?

I suspect the best ways to compare how well a sporting brand / enterprise is doing is by how much money they bring in. The more money they bring in, the more interest they are getting. I'd genuinely love to know how much the PGAT and DPWT bring in from broadcasting money, sponsorship and gate receipts. And compare those numbers what LIV bring in.

 

[Bdill93]

In relation to Sky being worried about viewing figures in golf, I'm not sure it quite works like that. Certainly when you talk about individual events.

Sky customers invest in the Sports Package, usually because they are interested in several sports Sky have rights to. In terms of their total customer database, I'm not sure how many people invest purely for the golf. I suspect reasonably low. Of the people that do invest because of the golf, or that is one of the things that pushes them over the line to invest, they are doing so effectively for the possibility to watch any of the golf Sky have over the year. It means they can tune in to majors, WGCs, PGAT and DPWT as and when they please. Having golf virtually every weekend is a nice option for customers to have. But, that doesn't mean they are tuning in to watch every single golf event on Sky. I'm sure Sky don't expect overly high viewing figures for some December / January tour event on one of the Major Tours. But, it is all part of the full season package. If they were paying millions and millions for each single event, then they may be more concerned. Especially if those events were costing them just as much as bigger events in the summer.

Furthermore, having these events broadcast every weekend gives them prime slots for certain brands to pay for advertising. If a major golf brand wanted to invest a ton of money in advertising, I'm guessing going to Sky TV and paying to advertise during the golf broadcasting is quite attractive for them.

I'm not sure you can compare broadcasting of live golf, with YouTube influencers? Youtube channels post content that can be watched at any time. Some utterly bizarre youTube influencers can gain a following. Some Talksport videos have millions of views, and there will be many sporting youTube videos with tens of millions of views. I'm not sure that means these sports should be looking to broadcast their live events on youTube. Unless LIV have dropped on a successful business plan that no other major sport has ever considered?

I suspect the best ways to compare how well a sporting brand / enterprise is doing is by how much money they bring in. The more money they bring in, the more interest they are getting. I'd genuinely love to know how much the PGAT and DPWT bring in from broadcasting money, sponsorship and gate receipts. And compare those numbers what LIV bring in.

I mean you're not really comparing Apples with Apples at this stage by comparing the most established golf tour in the world and LIV's income. Its like comparing Tesla and Volta trucks..

Start ups take time and often don't profit for years, why does everyone think they need profit now, its going to take years to build something up from nothing.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I mean you're not really comparing Apples with Apples at this stage by comparing the most established golf tour in the world and LIV's income. Its like comparing Tesla and Volta trucks..

Start ups take time and often don't profit for years, why does everyone think they need profit now, its going to take years to build something up from nothing.

How come the cricket start ups seem to do ok ?

Or indeed most other sports that have start ups ?

They all seem to get sponsers , media deals

Even the ESL had sponsorship backing and media deals sorted

Why do LIV seem to be the only sport start up that is struggling for it all and having to be bankrolled by a state to ensure it stays alive ?

 

[cleveland52]

I'm glad you are enjoying the read. So, I'm sure we'll keep it up by making good points. And, no doubt the pro LIV fans will do what they do best, by completely shifting the context of any debate by trying to make it sound LIV are the best thing to ever happen to golf. In relation to your points:

It will be gone in a year
Did anyone say it would be gone in a year, or two, or three? I don't think so, we all recognise they've invested so heavily in it, still have large amounts they can throw at it, that it wasn't just going to vanish in a puff of smoke within a year. I think the bigger discussion was "where will it be in a year", with many thinking it would still struggle to make a break through into the wider golfing audience, and truly be competing the the major tours that currently exist. I don't think much has changed to have that opinion by many changed.

They cannot get a TV deal
They didn't have a TV deal when those comments were being made, surely that was just a fact? Or do those not matter to you? No one ever said they would never ever get a TV deal in any location around the world. That would be a huge stretch. The argument, again, was more about would LIV be able to bet a major TV deal from a large broadcaster, a big sign a broadcaster is willing to invest in it as there is a market for it amongst viewers. So, the US equivalent of Dave getting a LIV deal is not really enough to say "I told you so" to the people highlighting that LIV was struggling to get a TV deal. But, if it is something LIV fans are buzzing about, no problem. Enjoy.

No one is watching it
Not correct, we all now for a fact that you and Mel Smooth are watching it for starters. However, if you are happy enough that 10-20 people around the world are watching LIV, then fine. It is good that you are happy. I think most people have simply highlighted that there are a relatively low number of people watching LIV in comparison to other golf they could be watching.

They can't get any top players to join
Again, weird comment when most in here have acknowledged the likes of Cameron Smith, Bryson DeChambeau and Brooks Koepka being top players. Once Dustin Johnsen joined, it was a sign that some of the higher level players may switch. However, just because it has 4 or 5 better players (at the time of joining), cannot dismiss the fact that many of the worlds best players have not yet shifted across. That most of the field is made up of little known players, or players that were good in the 1990's / 2000's. And, how will the players, that were top players when joining, develop their skills when up against such opposition and guaranteed mega income, regardless of performance? We can only hypothesise on that for now.

No one talks about LIV
Another odd comment, as we are all talking about LIV. I think the actual comment is that few are talking about the golf in LIV, or any positive aspects about it. Its nearly all politics. Loads of people are talking about Russia now and Covid19 not so long ago. That didn't automatically mean people were giving either topic the thumbs up.

This is the reality of the situation.

 

[Swango1980]

I mean you're not really comparing Apples with Apples at this stage by comparing the most established golf tour in the world and LIV's income. Its like comparing Tesla and Volta trucks..

Start ups take time and often don't profit for years, why does everyone think they need profit now, its going to take years to build something up from nothing.

I appreciate this. I wasn't saying I was interested so that, when I see the figures, I can so "you see, the PGA is miles better..."

I just said it would be interesting to actually know exactly what the figures are. Then see them on a year by year basis. See if the PGAT and DPWT are remaining stable, going up or going down. Seeing if we can also see any trends with LIV.

I think we all know that LIVs figures will be miles down on the PGAT at the moment. But, presumably if LIV genuinely wants to rival the PGAT as one of the worlds leading golf tours, then they'd like to eventually have a target of making the same amount of money. That would be a good indicator that LIV is reaching the same success as the current leading tours. But, I've no idea of their time frame. 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?

 

[Deleted member 21445]

I think we all know that LIVs figures will be miles down on the PGAT at the moment.

Yes agree and so they should be and will continue to be for quite a while when your comparing one that has 70 years of history, where the viewer has formed an attachment to the product and one who is about to launch just its 9th event and isnt even 12 months old as a tour.

The fact that people want to make an apples for apples comparison shows what Liv has achieved in less than 12 months but its totally unfair.

Liv really needs till the end of the 2024 season at least before a fair reflection of where it is as a tour can be made.

 

[Backsticks]

It will be gone in a year

They cannot get a TV deal

No one is watching it

They can't get any top players to join

No one talks about LIV

It will be gone in a year
Well, it hasnt made it through a year yet, so that prediction is still not resolved.

They cannot get a TV deal
The commercial reality is that they still havent. Like giving away free tickets to have patrons for the tournaments, they have given away TV rights for free, not sold them as happens for normal sports deals. Lotus could become the biggest car seller in the world if they charged £0 per car.

No one is watching it
Yes, technically there are not literally zero spectators, so it is not true that no one is watching it. But for a venture purporting to be a major world spectator sport, its audience is still miniscule, and by that standard, it is broadly correct to say no one is watching it.

They can't get any top players to join
Following the initial flow of a handful of key players, and middle ranking filler, apart from Smith, they have had no one. It is true that since last July, they cant get any top players to join them. Lots of rumour in Q3, but nothing whatsoever happened following the spin doctor flyers that there would be an exodus after the end of the FedexCup. And nothing since. Not even hints of waverers. So thus far, they have not reached a critical mass to claim sporting credibility. And certainly at the moment, they cannot get any top players to join.

No one talks about LIV
This is certainly true. In the sense of LIV the sport. People are talking about LIV as a contest of culture/money/loudness/stars/growthegame with the PGAT. But not about the sport itself. At the moment, or last year at least, the soap opera was creating headlines. But it is true that no one talks about LIV golf competition itself.

 

[Backsticks]

Yes agree and so they should be and will continue to be for quite a while when your comparing one that has 70 years of history, where the viewer has formed an attachment to the product and one who is about to launch just its 9th event and isnt even 12 months old as a tour.

The fact that people want to make an apples for apples comparison shows what Liv has achieved in less than 12 months but its totally unfair.

Liv really needs till the end of the 2024 season at least before a fair reflection of where it is as a tour can be made.

It needs 15 players or so from (forget the OWGR) what fans and media regard as the worlds top 50 golfers. It needs to ditch the teams - a credibility shot in their own foot if ever there was one - its just too laughable. And they need to get on real TV in the major golf following countries. If it sorts those, yes, it can succeed. And I'm in.

 

[Bdill93]

How come the cricket start ups seem to do ok ?

Or indeed most other sports that have start ups ?

They all seem to get sponsers , media deals

Even the ESL had sponsorship backing and media deals sorted

Why do LIV seem to be the only sport start up that is struggling for it all and having to be bankrolled by a state to ensure it stays alive ?

I would assume (but don’t know) they go about getting funding and then put the event on. Don’t get me wrong, it probably would have been a better way to go about things from the offset but that’s clearly not Greg’s style.

LIV didn’t need funding at the start up stage, it has the cash to start and then worry about creating an income stream later.

I think they knew it’d be hard to crack into the world of golf as it’s very much set in its ways, better to produce the product and let the sponsors come to you than sit in a board room trying to convince them you’ll sign top players etc.

I don’t know if sponsors are coming this season (as they seemed to make out) or if they aren’t, but if they keep making noise then eventually it might be loud enough for people/ sponsors to listen - it also might not ?

 

[BubbaP]

Alan Shipnuck on latest podcast.

"been talking to Liv to try and find out who their new signings are. All I got was that the dates for announcements have been continually pushed back for months. I've no idea if they are going to rock the world with 3or4 huge signings or they are scrambling around desparately because they only have Mito Perreira right now. Top golf agent told me that players are being told to hold out so they up their offer as the tour start deadline gets nearer. Full 48 man field has to be secured before their 1st event because the teams have to be set in stone for the whole season in 2023."

Just opinion, but I'm not expecting 'huge signings' right now. After a shaky start I do think the PGAT have done a number of things right for them. Keeping Monahan away from the news (mostly), the purse changes, adding further non US players to the council, courting the Korean players...
- so right now the top PGAT guys/inner circle look pretty set I would think.
They may be able to temp some from a little further down.

Whether the new PGAT purses are sustainable medium term I would think would be a risk, but if it was a bit of a gamble can certainly understand going for it.

 

[Imurg]

Just opinion, but I'm not expecting 'huge signings' right now. After a shaky start I do think the PGAT have done a number of things right for them. Keeping Monahan away from the news (mostly), the purse changes, adding further non US players to the council, courting the Korean players...
- so right now the top PGAT guys/inner circle look pretty set I would think.
They may be able to temp some from a little further down.

Whether the new PGAT purses are sustainable medium term I would think would be a risk, but if it was a bit of a gamble can certainly understand going for it.

Can't argue with all of that..but where does that leave LIV with regard to "improving" their line-up?
Whispers that John Huh is about to sign....and most people are going John Who?
If that's the quality of player they're able to attract at the moment, with the greatest of respect to Mr Huh, it's not moving LIV forward.
If the likes of Brooks, Bryson et al don't perform that well in the Majors it makes it harder to attract the sponsors...who also need ratings to jump on board.
With about a month to their first event, it's all pretty quiet on the signing side of things.

 

[PJ87]

Can't argue with all of that..but where does that leave LIV with regard to "improving" their line-up?
Whispers that John Huh is about to sign....and most people are going John Who?
If that's the quality of player they're able to attract at the moment, with the greatest of respect to Mr Huh, it's not moving LIV forward.
If the likes of Brooks, Bryson et al don't perform that well in the Majors it makes it harder to attract the sponsors...who also need ratings to jump on board.
With about a month to their first event, it's all pretty quiet on the signing side of things.

Would not surprise me in the slightest if a Liv player won a major this year

 

[BubbaP]

Can't argue with all of that..but where does that leave LIV with regard to "improving" their line-up?
Whispers that John Huh is about to sign....and most people are going John Who?
If that's the quality of player they're able to attract at the moment, with the greatest of respect to Mr Huh, it's not moving LIV forward.
If the likes of Brooks, Bryson et al don't perform that well in the Majors it makes it harder to attract the sponsors...who also need ratings to jump on board.
With about a month to their first event, it's all pretty quiet on the signing side of things.

Yeah, agree. There are so many unknowns. We've chatted before that entertaining golf doesn't necessarily need all the top guys, but the better/known golfers bring initial interest. Last year had the novelty factor. In some ways the media seemingly constantly plying the x verses y angle might oddly help liv.
Although I suspect a number of long time golf fans have stopped watching men's pro golf altogether.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yeah, agree. There are so many unknowns. We've chatted before that entertaining golf doesn't necessarily need all the top guys, but the better/known golfers bring initial interest. Last year had the novelty factor. In some ways the media seemingly constantly plying the x verses y angle might oddly help liv.
Although I suspect a number of long time golf fans have stopped watching men's pro golf altogether.

Most of the golfers mainly just watch the big events - The Majors , Ryder Cup , The Players and PGA at Wentworth beyond it will be maybe the odd event

This Top Golf thing that Rory and Woods are doing could grab some viewers as it is different but not sure how many will want to watch range stuff

Now the novelty of LIV has worn off and there are no real big players seemingly moving then it will just potter along and imo unless it became sustainable after a couple years will prob just stop

 

[Deleted member 15344]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1618668500054327296

 

[evemccc]

No issue really with Sir Nick’s comments - everyone is entitled to an opinion

My questions though to those on this thread who are vehemently against LIV Golf…

Would you have the same narrative energy if the PGL (which Rory was explicitly not against…despite it being a ‘closed-shop’) had got off the ground?

You’re against it because of “SA and human-rights abuses” OR you’re against it because it’s “not a real-tour and it’s a closed-shop”

Both are valid positions..

But what then re: the PGL? And what about the DP World Tour and SA, and dealing with other countries and regimes either through sponsorship or touring there with almost as equally not great human rights abuses…

I for one doubt anyone would have bated an eyelid if the PGL had got off the ground and Rory, JT, Spieth, DJ and Smith had joined in - and it was a closed-shop. The Country-Club kids at No Laying Up would be front and centre cheerleaders for it..

It’s blatant self-interest and hypocrisy from many in the US golf world and it’s painfully obvious

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No issue really with Sir Nick’s comments - everyone is entitled to an opinion

My questions though to those on this thread who are vehemently against LIV Golf…

Would you have the same narrative energy if the PGL (which Rory was explicitly not against…despite it being a ‘closed-shop’) had got off the ground?

You’re against it because of “SA and human-rights abuses” OR you’re against it because it’s “not a real-tour and it’s a closed-shop”

Both are valid positions..

But what then re: the PGL? And what about the DP World Tour and SA, and dealing with other countries and regimes either through sponsorship or touring there with almost as equally not great human rights abuses…

What is the PGL ? I have no idea what it is or was

And yes I have a big issue with The European Tour selling out to “DP World”

 

[evemccc]

What is the PGL ? I have no idea what it is or was

And yes I have a big issue with The European Tour selling out to “DP World”

Basically LIV Golf - just using funding from the Saudis but explicitly not Saudi-run

The Saudi’s nicked their idea. There’s an interview about 2 years ago on NLU with them when they were trying to get it off the ground

 

[evemccc]

@Liverpoolphil https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthe...-everything-you-need-to-know/?sh=7be981ff7b73

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Basically LIV Golf - just using funding from the Saudis but explicitly not Saudi-run

The Saudi’s nicked their idea. There’s an interview about 2 years ago on NLU with them when they were trying to get it off the ground

This ?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/what-is-the-premier-golf-league

“With the rumoured Saudi-backed Super League causing controversy as to the origin of the funds, the wealth of the PGL is said to be funded through private equity and high net worth individuals in the United States and not Saudi Arabia or other sovereign wealth funds.”