LIV Golf

[Backsticks]

That still wouldnt explain the non signings though. That well seems to have utterly dried up. Last summer, there was daily rumour prompting about every player of note. The big efflux, when no one followed after Smith, was that big names were staying put until after the Fedex finish. But nothing happened. Nor since. Nor even strong indications of any further movers since.
So the schedule doesnt really matter any more. Nor team Captains. Nor venues. With the failure to reach a critical mass of top players, and the packing of those slots instead with nobodies and champions tour material, it has no credibility as a top rank sporting event. The PGAT is still unarguably, and overwhelmingly, where the top of world golf is. And LIV is an irrelevant sideshow that will be unable to attract any meaningful interest from golf fans, let alone a wider sports audience.
The real question now is how do they withdraw, and what happens to the LIV players. Maybe a penance period of a year or two, and then readmittance to the PGAT, Champions Tour, or World Tour ?

 

[Mel Smooth]

[QUOTE="Swango1980, post: 2589157, member: 26510"]Is it not unusual that such a high profile sporting calendar, with professional sportsmen, hasn't been finalised over a year in advance? Seems weird that the 2023 schedule has not been publicised, and we are in 2023? Especially when they are desperate to increase the family base. I thought they'd have a schedule ages ago, and spending the entire off season trying to market it, really try and build up anticipation for the 1st event of season (is that in February?)[/QUOTE]

It's not unusual given it will be LIV's first full season - and as I've just pointed out, it looks like they've been trying to decide which events sit where. How many sports do you know where the schedule is finalised over a year in advance - I know in America they liked to decide where events are going to be played about 20 years advanced, but most sports usually announce their calendars when the current season finished.
I suspect that LIV have decided to keep their powder dry in terms of all announcements, until they have everything in place.

 

[Swango1980]

[QUOTE="Swango1980, post: 2589157, member: 26510"]Is it not unusual that such a high profile sporting calendar, with professional sportsmen, hasn't been finalised over a year in advance? Seems weird that the 2023 schedule has not been publicised, and we are in 2023? Especially when they are desperate to increase the family base. I thought they'd have a schedule ages ago, and spending the entire off season trying to market it, really try and build up anticipation for the 1st event of season (is that in February?)

It's not unusual given it will be LIV's first full season - and as I've just pointed out, it looks like they've been trying to decide which events sit where. How many sports do you know where the schedule is finalised over a year in advance - I know in America they liked to decide where events are going to be played about 20 years advanced, but most sports usually announce their calendars when the current season finished.
I suspect that LIV have decided to keep their powder dry in terms of all announcements, until they have everything in place.[/QUOTE]
I'd find it concerning they don't have everything in place by now. Even having a pretty solid idea on the calendar, even if a tweak might be required here and there. Otherwise it just feels like they are making it up as they go along. It may be their first full season. But, how long the current LIV representatives been together in planning the introduction to LIV, venues, players, format, etc.? There would have been a certain amount of planning for last years events, and presumably there was also longer term planning before it even kicked off last year? So, I still think not being able to announce the 2023 calendar in 2023 is strange

 

[HeftyHacker]

It's not unusual given it will be LIV's first full season - and as I've just pointed out, it looks like they've been trying to decide which events sit where. How many sports do you know where the schedule is finalised over a year in advance - I know in America they liked to decide where events are going to be played about 20 years advanced, but most sports usually announce their calendars when the current season finished.
I suspect that LIV have decided to keep their powder dry in terms of all announcements, until they have everything in place.

I'd find it concerning they don't have everything in place by now. Even having a pretty solid idea on the calendar, even if a tweak might be required here and there. Otherwise it just feels like they are making it up as they go along. It may be their first full season. But, how long the current LIV representatives been together in planning the introduction to LIV, venues, players, format, etc.? There would have been a certain amount of planning for last years events, and presumably there was also longer term planning before it even kicked off last year? So, I still think not being able to announce the 2023 calendar in 2023 is strange[/QUOTE]

I'd probably agree with this. Certainly in terms of venues, all the other dates they would be working around (majors etc) are set in stone so they certainly have the basis to be able to plan a calendar. It would likely be the biggest event a venue is hosting that year so you'd imagine that they aren't having to work around availability there.

But if you compare it to the F1, the venues are sorted well in advance

I can kind of understand the lack of new signings as the players will probably want to remain able to play on the PGA until as late as possible.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It’s just typical LIV golf though.


Since starting they have shown a lack of leadership and just seem to think everything will fall in place

It always seems like they weren’t prepared for anything -and it all stems from Greg Norman and his arrogance

Every single other golf tour has the venues and schedule sorted well in advance , all deals done

But LIV are flying by the wire - no schedule, no sponsers , no media deal

All they have is deep pockets to pay a lot of money to a handful of players to just turn up

Beyond the hardcore of “fans” it’s going to lose interest because beyond the money there is no other redeeming features of it.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

It’s just typical LIV golf though.


Since starting they have shown a lack of leadership and just seem to think everything will fall in place

It always seems like they weren’t prepared for anything -and it all stems from Greg Norman and his arrogance

Every single other golf tour has the venues and schedule sorted well in advance , all deals done

But LIV are flying by the wire - no schedule, no sponsers , no media deal

All they have is deep pockets to pay a lot of money to a handful of players to just turn up

Beyond the hardcore of “fans” it’s going to lose interest because beyond the money there is no other redeeming features of it.

For me golf needs shaking up.
The format is old and tired and in the new world of the need for quick gratification its in danger of losing sporting market share IMO.

Where would Cricket be if they had stuck with the old traditional test cricket and not introduced T20 and the Hundred ?

Ive no idea whether Liv Golf and the Rory/Tiger TGL stadium golf are the answer but I like that they are trying to do something different.
As a 51 year old golfer I enjoy the iconic PGAT events and the Majors but im also open to watching/embracing new formats to try and engage with a new audience.

Im willing to watch and enjoy all of the above forms of golf but it seems you need to take a side in this new golf world and I really dont see why that has to be the case.

 

[Backsticks]

For me golf needs shaking up.
The format is old and tired.

What does that even mean ?

Is football old and tired ? Should it move to 15 minute quarters with 4 teams playing a round robin to move away from the traditional staid format of 90 minute games between just two teams?
Should rugby move to quick fire games between teams of just 7 players, for running rugby and lots of scores, so that the kids today would engage with it ? Oh yes, it already exists and no one is interested in it.

LIV is a solution in search of a problem. What exactly is wrong with the current format ? Old and tired platitudes like old and tired, are not exactly a diagnosis. Traditional is not in itself a weakness.
Not that there is nothing wrong with something new either - if it is an improvement. And not just different for different sake. Different, whether new or not, can still be inferior. Tagging those identifying LIVs gimmicks as inferior as simply stuck in the mud traditionalists not moving with the times is a lazy charge. And strongly indicates the modifications themselves do not bring a genuine self justifying positive advancement.

 

[cleveland52]

For me golf needs shaking up.
The format is old and tired and in the new world of the need for quick gratification its in danger of losing sporting market share IMO.

Where would Cricket be if they had stuck with the old traditional test cricket and not introduced T20 and the Hundred ?

Ive no idea whether Liv Golf and the Rory/Tiger TGL stadium golf are the answer but I like that they are trying to do something different.
As a 51 year old golfer I enjoy the iconic PGAT events and the Majors but im also open to watching/embracing new formats to try and engage with a new audience.

Im willing to watch and enjoy all of the above forms of golf but it seems you need to take a side in this new golf world and I really dont see why that has to be the case.

I personally don't agree with him, but Mickelson told us to "pick a side."

 

[TheDiablo]

The way I see it now Liv has a number of problems

Let’s look at what their OKRs would be and score them

6x Top 50 players to move over by end of 2022, including 2x Top 15. Score: 0

Secure a US TV deal on a major network
Score: 0

Secure further sponsors based outside ME
Score 0

Secure ownership of franchises from Corporates and OEMs
Score 0

Grow the game internationally
Score 0.1

Retain key executives
Score 0.1

Secure access for their players in the majors on a long term basis
Score 0.5

A world of difference from their success in disrupting during May-July when many OKRs would have been 0.8-1 range

A CEO rarely survives this type of failure. They need to move on from Greg asap if they have a chance of long term success.

 

[cleveland52]

What does that even mean ?

Is football old and tired ? Should it move to 15 minute quarters with 4 teams playing a round robin to move away from the traditional staid format of 90 minute games between just two teams?
Should rugby move to quick fire games between teams of just 7 players, for running rugby and lots of scores, so that the kids today would engage with it ? Oh yes, it already exists and no one is interested in it.

LIV is a solution in search of a problem. What exactly is wrong with the current format ? Old and tired platitudes like old and tired, are not exactly a diagnosis. Traditional is not in itself a weakness.
Not that there is nothing wrong with something new either - if it is an improvement. And not just different for different sake. Different, whether new or not, can still be inferior. Tagging those identifying LIVs gimmicks as inferior as simply stuck in the mud traditionalists not moving with the times is a lazy charge. And strongly indicates the modifications themselves do not bring a genuine self justifying positive advancement.

I agree 100%.......The only ones that told us that traditional golf was old, and tired were Greg Norman and Phil Mickelson. Pro golf has never been better IMO.

Plenty of money, TV coverage and exciting new young stars.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

What does that even mean ?

Is football old and tired ? Should it move to 15 minute quarters with 4 teams playing a round robin to move away from the traditional staid format of 90 minute games between just two teams?
Should rugby move to quick fire games between teams of just 7 players, for running rugby and lots of scores, so that the kids today would engage with it ? Oh yes, it already exists and no one is interested in it.

LIV is a solution in search of a problem. What exactly is wrong with the current format ? Old and tired platitudes like old and tired, are not exactly a diagnosis. Traditional is not in itself a weakness.
Not that there is nothing wrong with something new either - if it is an improvement. And not just different for different sake. Different, whether new or not, can still be inferior. Tagging those identifying LIVs gimmicks as inferior as simply stuck in the mud traditionalists not moving with the times is a lazy charge. And strongly indicates the modifications themselves do not bring a genuine self justifying positive advancement.

I respect your opinion.
Please respect mine even though they are different.

All I said was I like that TGL and Liv are trying to do something different that has been done for the last 60+ years

 

[Mel Smooth]

I'm pretty sure once the TWGR thing launches, the narrative will have changed.....

 

[Bdill93]

I agree 100%.......The only ones that told us that traditional golf was old, and tired were Greg Norman and Phil Mickelson. Pro golf has never been better IMO.

Plenty of money, TV coverage and exciting new young stars.

I suppose the main point for me is - who actually watches the full show of every Pro Golf event over 72 holes? You'd need hours and hours free. Majors excluded.

LIV's events start and finish within 5 hours or so. There's a limited field of guaranteed stars* who participate in every event without fail.

The up and coming Tik Tok generation want fast, punchy entertainment and they want it now. The PGA Tour model does not lend itself to that as well as LIV does.

There will always be exceptions to the rule, but people and their habits are changing rapidly - I'm 29 and feel more part of the older generation than the younger!

*I expected a stronger field by now.....

 

[evemccc]

What does that even mean ?

Is football old and tired ? Should it move to 15 minute quarters with 4 teams playing a round robin to move away from the traditional staid format of 90 minute games between just two teams?
Should rugby move to quick fire games between teams of just 7 players, for running rugby and lots of scores, so that the kids today would engage with it ? Oh yes, it already exists and no one is interested in it.

LIV is a solution in search of a problem. What exactly is wrong with the current format ? Old and tired platitudes like old and tired, are not exactly a diagnosis. Traditional is not in itself a weakness.
Not that there is nothing wrong with something new either - if it is an improvement. And not just different for different sake. Different, whether new or not, can still be inferior. Tagging those identifying LIVs gimmicks as inferior as simply stuck in the mud traditionalists not moving with the times is a lazy charge. And strongly indicates the modifications themselves do not bring a genuine self justifying positive advancement.

Great post IMO

I could apply this to lots of things (esp cricket)

 

[Swango1980]

I suppose the main point for me is - who actually watches the full show of every Pro Golf event over 72 holes? You'd need hours and hours free. Majors excluded.

LIV's events start and finish within 5 hours or so. There's a limited field of guaranteed stars* who participate in every event without fail.

The up and coming Tik Tok generation want fast, punchy entertainment and they want it now. The PGA Tour model does not lend itself to that as well as LIV does.

There will always be exceptions to the rule, but people and their habits are changing rapidly - I'm 29 and feel more part of the older generation than the younger!

*I expected a stronger field by now.....

If LIV were trying to change their format to satisfy the TikTok generation, and their demand for fast, punchy entertainment, do any of us realistically think reducing a tournament from 4 to 3 rounds, and containing all golf to a 5 hour window per day, rather than most of the daylight hours really achieves this? Are the TikTok generation sitting down to watch 5 hours of golf, 3 days a week, loving how fast and punchy it is?

I'm not certain it meets that aim at all. If anything, it alienates many of the traditional golf fans (who have grown up with a sport, that is in a format that has developed over many many years, adapting to what fans enjoy most), whilst not tapping into the TikTok generation at all.

I doubt many people at all sit down and watch all 4 days of any golf event, apart from the biggest of them (Majors, and a few of the WGCs or signature tour events). But, even for standard tour events, that are on for many hours, 4 times a week, it gives golf fans a choice to tune in as and when they choose. Personally, for me, I can tune in on a Thursday or Friday, knowing there will be top golfers playing regardless of when I do, as the field is spread out. Saturday and Sunday, I can tune in later in the round, and guarantee watching all the guys who are in contention, without being side tracked too much by players not in contention. If someone is of this so-called Tik Tok generation, who want bite sized chunks of entertainment, I'm not sure golf is for them in any of its current formats?

 

[Bdill93]

If LIV were trying to change their format to satisfy the TikTok generation, and their demand for fast, punchy entertainment, do any of us realistically think reducing a tournament from 4 to 3 rounds, and containing all golf to a 5 hour window per day, rather than most of the daylight hours really achieves this? Are the TikTok generation sitting down to watch 5 hours of golf, 3 days a week, loving how fast and punchy it is?

I'm not certain it meets that aim at all. If anything, it alienates many of the traditional golf fans (who have grown up with a sport, that is in a format that has developed over many many years, adapting to what fans enjoy most), whilst not tapping into the TikTok generation at all.

I doubt many people at all sit down and watch all 4 days of any golf event, apart from the biggest of them (Majors, and a few of the WGCs or signature tour events). But, even for standard tour events, that are on for many hours, 4 times a week, it gives golf fans a choice to tune in as and when they choose. Personally, for me, I can tune in on a Thursday or Friday, knowing there will be top golfers playing regardless of when I do, as the field is spread out. Saturday and Sunday, I can tune in later in the round, and guarantee watching all the guys who are in contention, without being side tracked too much by players not in contention. If someone is of this so-called Tik Tok generation, who want bite sized chunks of entertainment, I'm not sure golf is for them in any of its current formats?

The 5 hours is great in person though, I've attended a LIV event (London) you rock up, watch golf for 5 hours then shoot off. The majority of the audience I would say were under 40 so it was a younger generation appeal. The 3/4 rounds makes no difference to me either way.

I think it lends itself more to it that the PGA tour does. I'm not saying its perfect (far from it) but its not even a year old yet so give it chance to establish whatever it is and then make a judgement.

In bold - exactly, so what's wrong with LIV trying to get these people on side by offering something different? This generation wants "stars" - look how many people turned up to see a youtuber box another youtuber at the weekend... If you switch on LIV you're guaranteed to see Bryson hitting his bombs etc..

Its too young to make many educated conclusions about LIV, it needs time for its fanbase to grow and develop (and age + get jobs) before it can be fully judged.

 

[Swango1980]

The 5 hours is great in person though, I've attended a LIV event (London) you rock up, watch golf for 5 hours then shoot off. The majority of the audience I would say were under 40 so it was a younger generation appeal. The 3/4 rounds makes no difference to me either way.

I think it lends itself more to it that the PGA tour does. I'm not saying its perfect (far from it) but its not even a year old yet so give it chance to establish whatever it is and then make a judgement.

In bold - exactly, so what's wrong with LIV trying to get these people on side by offering something different? This generation wants "stars" - look how many people turned up to see a youtuber box another youtuber at the weekend... If you switch on LIV you're guaranteed to see Bryson hitting his bombs etc..

Its too young to make many educated conclusions about LIV, it needs time for its fanbase to grow and develop (and age + get jobs) before it can be fully judged.

Indeed, but my whole post above the bit you put in bold was me trying to question the reasons why LIV are not appealing to the tiktok generation. I know it is a different format, I just don't think the format is different enough to appeal to these people. My final sentence was simply be summarising my post by asking the question again.

If you turned on the PGA Tour (pre LIV), you would have been able to watch Bryson hit bombs as well fairly frequently. A big reason why the PGA, and many people who have enjoyed golf pre LIV, are upset about what LIV has done. It has weakened the PGA Tour by removing some of its better, entertaining players. Even if LIV players were not banned, it would clearly result in the likes of Bryson playing less PGA events per year. So, now you have a slightly weakened PGA Tour in terms of field strength, yet you have LIV that only has a very limited number of top players.

OK, you tune into PGA (again, pre LIV) and maybe you are not guaranteed bombs by Bryson. Maybe he is not playing that week, or he is playing very badly. But, then there is still a good chance that you will be watching bombs from another player like Rory, or excellent play by many of the other top players in the world. With LIV, is it a good thing you are guaranteed to watch bombs by Bryson? Is that what golf fans want to see if he is fighting to get into the top 40 of one of their events? I agree, it is exciting to many fans when a player is hitting bombs, and they are up there challenging for the win. I suspect it is less entertaining when they are languishing near the bottom of the field.

 

[Bdill93]

Indeed, but my whole post above the bit you put in bold was me trying to question the reasons why LIV are not appealing to the tiktok generation. I know it is a different format, I just don't think the format is different enough to appeal to these people. My final sentence was simply be summarising my post by asking the question again.

If you turned on the PGA Tour (pre LIV), you would have been able to watch Bryson hit bombs as well fairly frequently. A big reason why the PGA, and many people who have enjoyed golf pre LIV, are upset about what LIV has done. It has weakened the PGA Tour by removing some of its better, entertaining players. Even if LIV players were not banned, it would clearly result in the likes of Bryson playing less PGA events per year. So, now you have a slightly weakened PGA Tour in terms of field strength, yet you have LIV that only has a very limited number of top players.

OK, you tune into PGA (again, pre LIV) and maybe you are not guaranteed bombs by Bryson. Maybe he is not playing that week, or he is playing very badly. But, then there is still a good chance that you will be watching bombs from another player like Rory, or excellent play by many of the other top players in the world. With LIV, is it a good thing you are guaranteed to watch bombs by Bryson? Is that what golf fans want to see if he is fighting to get into the top 40 of one of their events? I agree, it is exciting to many fans when a player is hitting bombs, and they are up there challenging for the win. I suspect it is less entertaining when they are languishing near the bottom of the field.

I think unfortunately its the players/ personalities that younger people do tune in for as apposed to seeing that weeks best players battling it out like they do on the PGA T. The Tour know it too, they've had the top X golfers all agree to playing the top 12 events for a reason - throw in the "virtual golf" thing that Rory and Tiger are working on and it screams "younger generation come watch this"

There's plenty of names left on the PGAT, the two biggest names in fact, it may be weaker than it was in 2021 but crucially its still producing new names, LIV doesn't do that, they buy the name. You can become a household name on the PGA Tour, little chance you will on LIV (unless already there).

Really interesting to see how it continues to develop, but I don't think any of this has been bad for the game of golf, if anything its probably brought more interest.

 

[Swango1980]

I think unfortunately its the players/ personalities that younger people do tune in for as apposed to seeing that weeks best players battling it out like they do on the PGA T. The Tour know it too, they've had the top X golfers all agree to playing the top 12 events for a reason - throw in the "virtual golf" thing that Rory and Tiger are working on and it screams "younger generation come watch this"

There's plenty of names left on the PGAT, the two biggest names in fact, it may be weaker than it was in 2021 but crucially its still producing new names, LIV doesn't do that, they buy the name. You can become a household name on the PGA Tour, little chance you will on LIV (unless already there).

Really interesting to see how it continues to develop, but I don't think any of this has been bad for the game of golf, if anything its probably brought more interest.

It has certainly lead to the creation of one more thread in the Golf Monthly forums that is of interest to a handful of its users (both fans and opponents of LIV)

 

[Bdill93]

It has certainly lead to the creation of one more thread in the Golf Monthly forums that is of interest to a handful of its users (both fans and opponents of LIV)

Yeah got that box firmly ticked!