LIV Golf

[Backsticks]

IMO it's such a lame argument. Tiger pretty much became the wealthiest golfer the day he turned pro. And the massive appearance money payouts didn’t seem to stop him trying to win.

True, but the difference with LIV is that the tournaments are a weaker field with a low number of golfers. The ones Tiger wanted to win had currency with both pro golfers and fans. The LIV ones dont. No LIV players record will be enhanced by LIV wins. It is either frozen in time the day they jumped, or they can enhance it on in the majors.

 

[BubbaP]

True, but the difference with LIV is that the tournaments are a weaker field with a low number of golfers. The ones Tiger wanted to win had currency with both pro golfers and fans. The LIV ones dont. No LIV players record will be enhanced by LIV wins. It is either frozen in time the day they jumped, or they can enhance it on in the majors.

I'd suggest that Chacarra's record was enhanced - do you not think?
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/eugenio-chacarra-wins-liv-golf-bangkok/

Have agreed before that the current liv events can't be compared with the few premium events with a big field stacked with top players. But don't think they can be dismissed in the way you suggest.
At risk of going around in circles again -
Rahm winning the Spanish open, enhanced his record and improved his ranking but surely you'd acknowledge the field strength was poor - he was virtually certain of the win, with only a few who may upset, despite the big field.
Then other end of spectrum - Rory winning in a field of 29 players. Yes the top 20 were pretty stacked, but there wasn't a full field for someone to upset from - surely you'd acknowledge that enhanced his record.

If only there was a system to try to fairly compare across all these permutations ?

 

[Swango1980]

IMO it's such a lame argument. Tiger pretty much became the wealthiest golfer the day he turned pro. And the massive appearance money payouts didn’t seem to stop him trying to win.

I'm pretty sure the "massive" (inverted commas as I doubt he was getting appearance fees on same scale as LIV money) appearance pay outs were a direct result of Tiger's ability, and then success. If he wasn't head a shoulders better than everyone else, and just another pro golfer, then he'd be no more special than anyone else. That will to win was required to build his legacy towards being the greatest ever golfer, and to build his brand. That was his motivation.

Can the same be said for Pat Perez, for example? He knows he'll never have a legacy as one of the greatest golfers of all time, or be a huge global brand. However, he does know he has now been given more access to money that would ever have been possible on PGA, even when fighting hard enough to keep his card and his earnings up. I'm sure he still has a will to win, but his motivations both before and after LIV will have been very different to Tiger's.

 

[Ian_George]

True, but the difference with LIV is that the tournaments are a weaker field with a low number of golfers. The ones Tiger wanted to win had currency with both pro golfers and fans. The LIV ones dont. No LIV players record will be enhanced by LIV wins. It is either frozen in time the day they jumped, or they can enhance it on in the majors.

I think Eugenio López-Chacarra's 'instant' win could well be - depending on how he subsequently performs in any majors he subsequently plays in (if or once allowed). Edit: Beaten by IanP's post!

 

[Backsticks]

Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.

 

[BubbaP]

I'm pretty sure the "massive" (inverted commas as I doubt he was getting appearance fees on same scale as LIV money) appearance pay outs were a direct result of Tiger's ability, and then success. If he wasn't head a shoulders better than everyone else, and just another pro golfer, then he'd be no more special than anyone else. That will to win was required to build his legacy towards being the greatest ever golfer, and to build his brand. That was his motivation.

Can the same be said for Pat Perez, for example? He knows he'll never have a legacy as one of the greatest golfers of all time, or be a huge global brand. However, he does know he has now been given more access to money that would ever have been possible on PGA, even when fighting hard enough to keep his card and his earnings up. I'm sure he still has a will to win, but his motivations both before and after LIV will have been very different to Tiger's.

You perhaps skipped a post or two - this was the original context:

.. with no pressure because he's prepaid $100M

I'd still suggest Tiger as a professional never had any financial pressures to worry about to spur him practice golf, or close out tournaments. And that likely applies to the top nn players today also.

Interesting you chose Perez. It seemed to me he was feeling the pressure of potentially being the weak link in his team, and possibly that spurred him on.

 

[BubbaP]

Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.

Ha yes, forgot about the Hero Challenge! And mostly agree, I'd posted a bit back that I don't think all (20) players should receive ranking points in those kind if events.
Wonder if anyone has done some recent research around field sizes, purely on perception it maybe feels like of late tournament wins are coming from a smaller group of entered players within the fields.
Which gives an excuse to acknowledge Seamus Power winning in Bermuda at the weekend ? - kicking myself for not putting a few bob on that as his ranking was way above majority of field.

 

[Ian_George]

Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.

If you check out the - pretty accurate imo - field strength ratings in the, independent, DataGolf site https://datagolf.com/field-strength-table you'll find he (presumably) disagrees on 'Player Quality' - at least for the lower ranked players in the event, but does seem to agree wrt to 'Difficulty to Win'! LIV is ranked significantly above KFT and also above the PGAT played the same week - quite deliberate timing by LIV imo! The Bedminster vs Hero Challenge is an example of LIV's timing btw.

 

[cleveland52]

Again, it'll depend on the contract! In football, for instance, the club is likely still paying such a who has no incentive to perform so team results would likely suffer LIV, however could simply drop the player from the 48 in their events, so no income for the player! The contract could actually be worded such that the headline 'guaranteed' value has to be earned by performance rather than simply as a sign-on 'bung'!

Agreed. Plus the fact that most professional contracts are incentive laden.

 

[Ian_George]

Agreed. Plus the fact that most professional contracts are incentive laden.

'Incentive' is one of the hot issues wrt LIV Tour guys!

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Not sure that is relevant though. I am sure Bernard Langer still has a huge will to win, and when competing on the Seniors Tour has done very very well. However, despite that will to win and his better performances relative to those he was against, it didn't mean he was one of the top golfers in the world. He was competing against weaker fields than those on PGA.

Just using that as a clear example, not saying the likes of Smith or DJ are at the same current level as Langer. But, even if DJ's will to win is as high as it was a year or 2 ago, it doesn't mean he is just as good at golf. He might be, he might not be, but it is much harder to know if he is competing in less challenging fields.

These guys (All top Pro golfers) want to win whether they are playing a Liv event, PGAT event, major or Sunday match with their mates.

Thats why they became top Pro golfers.

To suggest these guys are not trying or wanting to win because of Livs model is just plain wrong and disrespectful to them as players.

Cam Smith could have just turned up and banked the money but he is grinding in every event and I've watched pretty much every minute of them all.
As another example look at Westwoods interview in Boston when he needed birdie to win on the last and he bogeyed to miss play off, he was totally devastated.

These guys want to win first and foremost everytime they tee it up..

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.

Your right at the moment it doesn't lead anywhere but it's only 135 days old as a tour.
It leads nowhere till/if they get OWGR points.
Till the majors announce qualifying criteria for Liv golf, they may for example say top 5 on liv order of merit qualify excluding already exempt players.

In the next 2 months more top players ARE going to move, many on here don't like to hear that but it is going to happen.

As more top players move across the need will be greater for pathways to be generated because majors want the best players in their events and OWGR can't have a ranking system for the worlds best golfers with a growing % of the worlds best golfers missing from its list.

No before we go round in circles about OWGR tour qualifying criteria for the 20th time, yes Liv might have to make some concessions to get OWGR points.

 

[Swango1980]

These guys (All top Pro golfers) want to win whether they are playing a Liv event, PGAT event, major or Sunday match with their mates.

Thats why they became top Pro golfers.

To suggest these guys are not trying or wanting to win because of Livs model is just plain wrong and disrespectful to them as players.

Cam Smith could have just turned up and banked the money but he is grinding in every event and I've watched pretty much every minute of them all.
As another example look at Westwoods interview in Boston when he needed birdie to win on the last and he bogeyed to miss play off, he was totally devastated.

These guys want to win first and foremost everytime they tee it up..

Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.

 

[AussieKB]

Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.

Same can be said about players on the PGAT... it is up to each individual to set their own goals.

 

[Swango1980]

Same can be said about players on the PGAT... it is up to each individual to set their own goals.

Not really. The financial rewards are less than LIV, and if you start playing poorly you will, sooner or later, start losing your rights to play much at all on the PGA Tour.

The likes of Bryson and Brooks are pretty much guaranteed their place on LIV for as long as they want it. Certainly long enough to earn lot and lots of money, even if their performances are generally poor. Especially as they are only up against 47 other guys, many of whom have miles less ability.

So, the PGA and LIV are not just the same. It is a ridiculously simplistic way to think of things, just because the best players on the PGA are wealthy as well. We all know that if LIV didn't have the financial packages they do, and only offered the same amount as PGA or even a little bit more, none of the top players in the world would likely have bothered joining.

 

[AussieKB]

Not really. The financial rewards are less than LIV, and if you start playing poorly you will, sooner or later, start losing your rights to play much at all on the PGA Tour.

The likes of Bryson and Brooks are pretty much guaranteed their place on LIV for as long as they want it. Certainly long enough to earn lot and lots of money, even if their performances are generally poor. Especially as they are only up against 47 other guys, many of whom have miles less ability.

So, the PGA and LIV are not just the same. It is a ridiculously simplistic way to think of things, just because the best players on the PGA are wealthy as well. We all know that if LIV didn't have the financial packages they do, and only offered the same amount as PGA or even a little bit more, none of the top players in the world would likely have bothered joining.

How much do you need ????
The average PGA Tour player made slightly under $1.5 million in 2021, according to pgatour.com.

One Aussie of no big note is :
Aaron Baddeley has an estimated net worth of about $22 million.

He turned professional in 2000, and he has played for 23 years. Over the years, Aaron has averaged about $996,743 prize money earnings per year.

 

[Ian_George]

Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.

The only place where the 'best' issue is likely to be resolved is at the Majors! And for at least the next year, participation of the top LIV players (perhaps sans Chacarra) will certainly be able to play in at least a selection of the Majors Bryson probably won't be eligible for The Masters, but DJ will - for life. BdC has another 9 years of eligibility for US Open, Cameron Smith is exempt from The Open until 60 and qualifies for all other Majors in 2023 There are other LIV players with various exemptions. And, of course both Opens have open Qualifying tournaments too.

None of the players, on any Tour, that are in contention for Major wins have financial worries, so arguments based on that have no value!

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.

Im not calling you out personally here ? it's just a general consensus that the money on Liv means they dont try or want to win as much and I believe strongly that's not true.

That rational would also apply to a very high amount of PGAT players who don't have any financial worries.

So Rory doesn't want to win because he has no financial worries?

Stephan Jaeger (Yes I've never heard of him either) No 100 on the PGAT 2022 money list won $1.2 million dollars.

Yes far less than some of the Liv Players but not exactly suffering from financial worries.

I agree that this year your point has some validation as per time with family because they only played 8 Events and we can only guess at how much they practiced compared to before but these guys all have professional pride for sure.

Next year though they will be playing 14 Liv events and 4 majors.

At the end of the day they all want to win whether it be Rory, Cam, Stephen Jaegar or Sam Horsefield.

At the moment and for some considerable time if not ever a Liv win is worth far more in money than a iconic PGAT win but less in historic and legacy value.
Im talking about ,bay hill, Memorial, genesis etc not so much the Shriners and bermuda.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Cam Smith shot a 65 round the Blue Monster on Sunday.

Why are people questioning the credentials of these guys?

 

[AussieKB]

Cam Smith shot a 65 round the Blue Monster on Sunday.

Why are people questioning the credentials of these guys?

He could shoot 59 and they still would not be happy