LIV Golf

[Deleted member 1147]

I think people forget that whilst there are the old folks like Mickleson, Poulter, Westwood, Gargia et al, there are also quite a few excellent players who've moved, Niemann, Ancer, Ortiz, Smith etc who were also ranked quite highly before their moves.

 

[Ian_George]

Yes, I'm not a fan of LIV. But, my serious point was that just because he has done well on LIV, does not mean he is definitively in the Top 10 golfers in the world. Any ranking system is going to struggle, when LIV players are not really competing against most of the other top players in the world.

I'm not a fan of LIV either! I agree that, over time, an isolated tour's results could become distorted - either way! That's also part of the reason for the OWGR guidelines that LIV current doesn't comply with! Performances at 'high-ticket' Majors also mitigates distortions somewhat. Statistically, it doesn't take much interaction to 'normalise' sets of samples.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

With the Liv season done we now enter the Liv Tour transfer window.

More are going to go but who and how significant will they be ?

RUMOURS
Well as I mentioned a while ago my friend who is a coach on the PGA Tour said he had heard that Cantlay has signed, so I stand by that.
He got the last 6 that signed spot on.
Cantlay is repeatably mentioned in the rumour mill and his big pal is Xander. Where there is smoke there always seems to be a fire.
They are 4 & 6 in the world and would undoubtably strengthen the Liv field if they left.

He has not heard of this 4man team of Europeans moving over that Andrew Putnam mentioned on the Stripe Show Podcast.
Thomas Pieters is heavily rumoured, strengthens LIV but no big loss.
I would have thought Hatton, Rose, Fleetwood would all be on Livs Radar.

The main rumour is that Liv is looking to strengthen its Asian players for that market and offering Hideki and Tom Kim eye watering amounts of $$$$ to sign up.
Liv's Asian players on the iron heads team is pretty weak to say the least so that strategy would make sense but thats a tough sell, think they have more chance of Hideki but would be surprised if either moved across.

Only other in the top 10 in the world I could see possibly moving would be Morikawa but again id be very surprised.
Any from 10-30 is fair game apart from Billy Horschel & Jordan Spieth.

Going to be an interesting couple of months.

Who do you think will/might move ?

 

[Swango1980]

Just so we are clear, as the OWGR ranks players across 23 tours and clearly most top players will not be playing in all these tours at the same time, you must believe the OWGR struggles generally?

Going back many years, then there would have been some truth in that. However, over the years the best players had pretty much all moved over to the PGA Tour, and so it would have made ranking the players easier. Sure, they may not be competing against the same players week in, week out. But, they are all within the same tour, with players being constantly competing against other tour members on a regular enough basis for the rankings to iron out. However, even then, there have always been moans and groans about exact positions. Plenty argued Donald and Westwood were never actually World Number 1 (I didn't agree with this argument).

If you go back to the earlier days in this post, you'll find I was very complimentary on DJ, and said it was a big deal that LIV signed him up. As far as I remember, he was the first "proper" player they signed, all others were pretty much has beens and unknowns. Some classed DY as a has been, but I definitely felt he had a few more years in the tank at playing at a high level. However, despite that, I simply don't think one can assume he is a Top 10 golfer in the world just because he did well on LIV. There are plenty of other golfers currently in the top 10/20 players in the world that would argue against him being better than them.

I'm not saying that, had he stayed on PGA, he definitively would not have got back into the Top 10. However, I have serious reservations on that. The field is just too weak, except for a handful of players, to make any proper conclusion on that.

 

[Bdill93]

Going back many years, then there would have been some truth in that. However, over the years the best players had pretty much all moved over to the PGA Tour, and so it would have made ranking the players easier. Sure, they may not be competing against the same players week in, week out. But, they are all within the same tour, with players being constantly competing against other tour members on a regular enough basis for the rankings to iron out. However, even then, there have always been moans and groans about exact positions. Plenty argued Donald and Westwood were never actually World Number 1 (I didn't agree with this argument).

If you go back to the earlier days in this post, you'll find I was very complimentary on DJ, and said it was a big deal that LIV signed him up. As far as I remember, he was the first "proper" player they signed, all others were pretty much has beens and unknowns. Some classed DY as a has been, but I definitely felt he had a few more years in the tank at playing at a high level. However, despite that, I simply don't think one can assume he is a Top 10 golfer in the world just because he did well on LIV. There are plenty of other golfers currently in the top 10/20 players in the world that would argue against him being better than them.

I'm not saying that, had he stayed on PGA, he definitively would not have got back into the Top 10. However, I have serious reservations on that. The field is just too weak, except for a handful of players, to make any proper conclusion on that.

Pretty much my opinion of the average PGA tour event since LIV began though.

Only player in the OGWR who I think's position is accurate is Rory as he's placed so highly all year round really. Everyone else is a toss up. Cam Smith certainly finished the season well - Scottie started it well - and so on...

Were at page 406 and still arguing about OGWR points.... banter

 

[Ian_George]

With the Liv season done we now enter the Liv Tour transfer window.

More are going to go but who and how significant will they be ?

RUMOURS
Well as I mentioned a while ago my friend who is a coach on the PGA Tour said he had heard that Cantlay has signed, so I stand by that.
He got the last 6 that signed spot on.
Cantlay is repeatably mentioned in the rumour mill and his big pal is Xander. Where there is smoke there always seems to be a fire.
They are 4 & 6 in the world and would undoubtably strengthen the Liv field if they left.

He has not heard of this 4man team of Europeans moving over that Andrew Putnam mentioned on the Stripe Show Podcast.
Thomas Pieters is heavily rumoured, strengthens LIV but no big loss.
I would have thought Hatton, Rose, Fleetwood would all be on Livs Radar.

The main rumour is that Liv is looking to strengthen its Asian players for that market and offering Hideki and Tom Kim eye watering amounts of $$$$ to sign up.
Liv's Asian players on the iron heads team is pretty weak to say the least so that strategy would make sense but thats a tough sell, think they have more chance of Hideki but would be surprised if either moved across.

Only other in the top 10 in the world I could see possibly moving would be Morikawa but again id be very surprised.
Any from 10-30 is fair game apart from Billy Horschel & Jordan Spieth.

Going to be an interesting couple of months.

Who do you think will/might move ?

Something to keep LIV in the news as interest wanes!

 

[Swango1980]

Pretty much my opinion of the average PGA tour event since LIV began though.

Only player in the OGWR who I think's position is accurate is Rory as he's placed so highly all year round really. Everyone else is a toss up. Cam Smith certainly finished the season well - Scottie started it well - and so on...

Were at page 406 and still arguing about OGWR points.... banter

Yes, many PGA Tour fields are weak. However, it still works out OK for rankings. Because, the weakest players that play in events this sort of time of year would love to play in the bigger PGA Tour events, but cannot. The best players can, and they can choose not to play that much in the events this time of year. However, the big players will still play a few events with weak fields, and the weaker players will qualify for the stronger events (say, by winning one of the weaker events). So, there is enough crossover between all the players to allow a pretty decent ranking system to be produced.

The same is not true with LIV though. The weaker players in LIV are not also competing in events with a variation of the worlds top players from one week to the next, and the top players are not either. It is a closed shop (except when LIV sign up another random player, and ditch another), except that we should still, for a period, have some of the LIV players competing in Majors for a while yet, who still qualify.

 

[Swango1980]

Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?

They would have to or it goes against their players are "Independant contractors" mantra.

PGAT has been very strong in their message saying there is no way back if you go.. Its part of their deterrent to stop players from moving over.

 

[Bdill93]

Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?

Don't think they could bail on LIV until their contract with LIV expires - without serious financial implications.

I dont think LIV players are limited as to where they play the rest of the time though - So they could do both

 

[Ian_George]

Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?

That'll all depend on their contract(s)! Indeed, PGAT reaction would be 'interesting'! But I'm almost certain that an employer (even of an independent contractor) cannot force an employee or contractor not to leave.

 

[cleveland52]

He must be. He has been competing against mighty golfers like Westwood, Poulter, Mickleson and Garcia, and the extremely in form Brooks and Bryson.

Let's us not forget all the others, most of who are that incredible at golf that I don't know / can't remember their names.

We don't need to worry about the small fact he has not been in direct competition with most of the guys that were in the top 10, and those just outside it, when he left for LIV. Let us just say he is back in top 10 and forget about the guys we place behind him.

LOL!......Yep, not to mention three round tournaments with no pressure because he's prepaid $100M.
Playing the same guys every week with only one in the top 20 in the world is not the proper gauge.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

LOL!......Yep, not to mention three round tournaments with no pressure because he's prepaid $100M.
Playing the same guys every week with only one in the top 20 in the world is not the proper gauge.

The top guys don't lose that will to win. #fact
If you think DJ and Cam Smith etc are not trying hard to win then you ain't been watching properly or at all.
Especially in this team event where no one wanted to let their team mates down.

 

[cleveland52]

That'll all depend on their contract(s)! Indeed, PGAT reaction would be 'interesting'! But I'm almost certain that an employer (even of an independent contractor) cannot force an employee or contractor not to leave.

Or the player could do like modern athletes that want to be traded or get out of a contract .......They could tank and hurt the team. Will golfers do that? I don't think so.

 

[Mel Smooth]

datagolf rankings have been updated to include the weekends performances.

Cam moves up two places, DJ drops down a place to 8th - he's ranked 31st on the OWGR for reference.

 

[cleveland52]

The top guys don't lose that will to win. #fact
If you think DJ and Cam Smith etc are not trying hard to win then you ain't been watching properly or at all.
Especially in this team event where no one wanted to let their team mates down.

Well, Tiger said, "where is the will to practice" and I'm paraphrasing.

 

[BubbaP]

Well, Tiger said, "where is the will to practice" and I'm paraphrasing.

IMO it's such a lame argument. Tiger pretty much became the wealthiest golfer the day he turned pro. And the massive appearance money payouts didn’t seem to stop him trying to win.

 

[Swango1980]

The top guys don't lose that will to win. #fact
If you think DJ and Cam Smith etc are not trying hard to win then you ain't been watching properly or at all.
Especially in this team event where no one wanted to let their team mates down.

Not sure that is relevant though. I am sure Bernard Langer still has a huge will to win, and when competing on the Seniors Tour has done very very well. However, despite that will to win and his better performances relative to those he was against, it didn't mean he was one of the top golfers in the world. He was competing against weaker fields than those on PGA.

Just using that as a clear example, not saying the likes of Smith or DJ are at the same current level as Langer. But, even if DJ's will to win is as high as it was a year or 2 ago, it doesn't mean he is just as good at golf. He might be, he might not be, but it is much harder to know if he is competing in less challenging fields.

 

[BubbaP]

I had hoped the forum could stay above things like Facebook & Twitter and not become too tribal etc., have some debate, and a few laughs. For a bit of fun, golf is notoriously hard to predict but where might you put your money based on a fictitious match on current owgr rankings:
(rankings alongside where possible)
Team A --- Team B
1. Scheffler v C Smith
2. Lowry v Niemann
3. Bradley v Ancer
4. Conners v Johnson
5. Scott v Gooch
6. Pieters v Koepka
7. Harman v Na
8. Kitayama v Oosthuziun
9. Berger v Varner
10. Periera v Kokrak
11. Noren v Casey
12. Hughes v DeChambeau
13. Henley v Reed

A few potential decent matches in there, looks pretty even.

 

[Ian_George]

Or the player could do like modern athletes that want to be traded or get out of a contract .......They could tank and hurt the team. Will golfers do that? I don't think so.

Again, it'll depend on the contract! In football, for instance, the club is likely still paying such a who has no incentive to perform so team results would likely suffer LIV, however could simply drop the player from the 48 in their events, so no income for the player! The contract could actually be worded such that the headline 'guaranteed' value has to be earned by performance rather than simply as a sign-on 'bung'!