LIV Golf

[BubbaP]

I'm in favour of LIV golfers being awarded points - eventually!
But before that happens, LIV must comply with the many, reasonable, requirements/rules that it currently fails to, primarily as these 'standardise' the assessment of any tournament's worth! Those requirements were published long before LIV started demanding immediate allocation of points and are complied with by all tours that awarded them. So I agree with your description of their tactics as 'bullying' and 'backdoor'!

It seems, to me, that it's really only for the Majors that 'immediate' OWGR points, are critical - and then only for a very limited number of players anyway. The likes of Cam Smith, Dustin Johnson, BdC etc already gualify - through criteria separate to OWGR positions - and will continue to do so for 2-3 years, so they've no problem if it takes the standard 12 month-ish assessment time before the tour is able to allocate points. If that wasn't considered and checked by the other players before they signed up to LIV, then more fool them!! They already have a convenient vehicle, the MENA Tour through which to achieve that - while still operating their 'invitation' series.

As for the alternative ranking - that includes LIV tournaments/players, that's simply a different analysis with no better or poorer value imo except those running the Majors (and The Players) control it - no bad thing imo. FWIW, my casual analysis indicates that it rates LIV tournaments pretty low compared to PGAT ones, which doesn't help the points allocated to those LIV players finishing outside the first few places - and that's in addition to the likes of Cam Smith, BdC etc. who are not performing very well for whatever reason.

Agree with a lot if that. Appreciate it doesn't seem fashionable to be understanding of various angles/sides of a debate, but I was agreeing with some of @Imurg 's points yesterday and also some of @Backsticks points.

I'd posted a while back that a point may come where the "rights" of it become secondary to perception. It has been noticeable to me how owgr is increasingly being referred to as the 'PGA Tour rankings' , and somewhat surprisingly DP World supporters and other country/continent supporters have been also having a pop.
Arguably incorrectly, think some of it is just the recent changes removing some historical flaws which make it now more obvious just how strong the PGAT was.
That said, points are down generally, Rory received 68 points for his CJ win in 2021, but only 45.6 in 2022.
Not clear if this was something deliberate to further elevate the Players & majors, or a liv impact, or bit if both.
Am actually a bit surprised how much attention is currently on the rankings, from a golf played, liv perspective it doesn't really become relevant again until Feb 2023.
But as @TheBigDraw mentioned it may relate to further line up changes.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Interesting if Liv had OWGR tweet

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585047329216004098

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Golf Channel
Slowly but surely starting to cover Liv Golf.
Pretty sure Liv Miami is the 1st time they were present at the press conferences asking questions.

Golf Channel Podcast
Winners & Losers of Liv Golf Season.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Golf Channel
Slowly but surely starting to cover Liv Golf.
Pretty sure Liv Miami is the 1st time they were present at the press conferences asking questions.

Golf Channel Podcast
Winners & Losers of Liv Golf Season.

Fairly balanced views as well, good to see.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Quite an interesting viewpoint from Bryson explaining why he's still in the lawsuit.

We're in for an interesting few years I think, as the truth is exposed on all sides.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585735708332986368

 

[Ian_George]

...
Arguably incorrectly, think some of it is just the recent changes removing some historical flaws which make it now more obvious just how strong the PGAT was.
That said, points are down generally, Rory received 68 points for his CJ win in 2021, but only 45.6 in 2022.
Not clear if this was something deliberate to further elevate the Players & majors, or a liv impact, or bit if both.
Am actually a bit surprised how much attention is currently on the rankings, from a golf played, liv perspective it doesn't really become relevant again until Feb 2023.
But as @TheBigDraw mentioned it may relate to further line up changes.

Rankings (End of 2022 and Week before tournament) will obviously matter a lot when invites to The Masters are sent out, as Top 50 not otherwise qualified are invited.
Currently, 9 LIV members qualify - for non OWGR ranking criteria - and about the same from current OWGR ranking. It's likely that several - most, or even all of those - are likely to slip out of the OWGR 'Top 50 at End-of-2022' ranking criteria.
I believe the points reduction is simply because of the significantly different - supposedly more accurate - approach to allocating points. It'll take 2 years before that change becomes consistent with 'old' style points allocation drops off. It wouldn't make sense trying to recalc the old-style results. It certainly does seem to elevate the value of performance at majors and The Players! And, indeed, demonstrates how strong the PGAT was - and, imo, still is.

 

[Swango1980]

The PGA have released players before, they chose to ban the LIV players to try and stem the flow of players - it didn't work, now it looks like their option is to use the OWGR points situation to try and stop the LIV series from taking a significant number more. But, the credibility of the OWGR rankings are already being questioned by plenty of people - and it will become abundantly clear that the OWGR is just an extension of Pelley and Monahans opinions on LIV, given there are already cedible ways of ranking players.

It didn't work? It maybe didn't eliminate the flow entirely, but I suspect it is a primary reason why many players, who have not signed up to LIV, have decided to refuse the offer to line their own pockets? So, it seems like the PGA's response has worked almost perfectly.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Rankings (End of 2022 and Week before tournament) will obviously matter a lot when invites to The Masters are sent out, as Top 50 not otherwise qualified are invited.
Currently, 9 LIV members qualify - for non OWGR ranking criteria - and about the same from current OWGR ranking. It's likely that several - most, or even all of those - are likely to slip out of the OWGR 'Top 50 at End-of-2022' ranking criteria.
I believe the points reduction is simply because of the significantly different - supposedly more accurate - approach to allocating points. It'll take 2 years before that change becomes consistent with 'old' style points allocation drops off. It wouldn't make sense trying to recalc the old-style results. It certainly does seem to elevate the value of performance at majors and The Players! And, indeed, demonstrates how strong the PGAT was - and, imo, still is.

Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?

 

[Swango1980]

Go on then, I'll bite.

For clarification, which tournaments can you share that are open to absolutely anyone?

The Open Championship might be an obvious choice, but then players have to have attained a certain standard, and have to be male! So no, that doesn't fit, not open to anyone.

Am not here to defend liv. The limitations are well known. I am capable of acknowledging it has only been around 4 months though.
There was this stuff....
https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-relegation-qualifying-tournament/?amp=1

? ?

That may well have been his point? Outside LIV, the PGA Tour and other tour events are all open to absolutely everyone, so long as they prove they are good enough and qualify.

LIV isn't. So, the joke was, I suspect, if you only need to rely on getting an invite to LIV, try and get friendly with GN and get invited. Sure, if you are a bad golfer, good luck with that. But, Ali Dia managed to convince Southampton manager Graeme Souness he was the cousin of George Weah, and was given a contract on the back of it. He was abysmal. So, perhaps if you tell GN you are the half brother of Rory McIlroy, you might have a chance to get on LIV. GN would love to think he is getting one over McIlroy by employing a family member

 

[Swango1980]

Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?

I'm not sure entirely, however:

The field in the Players between 2011-2017 was evaluated, and the quality of the field, on average, was higer than any of the 4 Majors. This was particularly true for the bottom 25% of the field, as the selection criteria is so stringent.

So, I'm guessing that there was not really a logical reason to award fewer points at the Players in comparison to the Majors?

 

[Backsticks]

Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?

The explanation is lobbying from the PGAT who have long pushed "the 5th major" narrative, as they have control of none of the majors. And as always, when we use the word 'narrative', it means the rest of the world isnt buying it.

 

[r0wly86]

The explanation is lobbying from the PGAT who have long pushed the 5th major narrative. And as always, when we use the word narrative, it means the rest of the world isnt buying it.

It is the strongest field of any event in the world

 

[Backsticks]

It is the strongest field of any event in the world

Thats more an academic point, though it does apply somewhat to the masters. The reality is that there is nobody not playing in an Open or us open that might win them.

 

[Mel Smooth]

It is the strongest field of any event in the world

Not according to the OWGR

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?

As I understand it OWGR points are awarded to events based on the strength of the field.
The Players without doubt has the strongest field of any regular season event outside of the majors, some would say possibly stronger than the majors.
For this reason it rightly gets awarded higher OWGR points.

Thats not the case now after the Liv disruption because if the likes of your Cam Smiths (Defending Champion) , Dustin Johnsons, BDCs, Brooks Koepka's etc are in the majors they will obviously not be at the Players at Sawgrass.

 

[r0wly86]

Thats more an academic point, though it does apply somewhat to the masters. The reality is that there is nobody not playing in an Open or us open that might win them.

While the Players is separately rated to give 80 points. 80 is the maximum available points for tournaments (outside of majors which is given 100) based on the strength of field. As the Players has the strongest field then it seems natural that they will get the maximum 80 points

 

[r0wly86]

Not according to the OWGR

The Players is the highest ranking field outside of the majors which are ranked separately. It has a ranking of 806 the next highest non major is strokeplay tournament is the Genesis Invitational at 685 so 121 points lowers, the highest ranked tournament all inclusive is the USPGA which is ranked at 876 70 points above the Players

 

[Mel Smooth]

As I understand it OWGR points are awarded to events based on the strength of the field.
The Players without doubt has the strongest field of any regular season event outside of the majors, some would say possibly stronger than the majors.
For this reason it rightly gets awarded higher OWGR points.

Thats not the case now after the Liv disruption because if the likes of your Cam Smiths (Defending Champion) , Dustin Johnsons, BDCs, Brooks Koepka's etc are in the majors they will obviously not be at the Players at Sawgrass.

But if it’s got the strongest field, why does it need a minimum 80 points for the winner, the SOF should dictate the points for the winner, not a discretionary amendment because some people think it should be a major.

 

[Mel Smooth]

I must say, It’s quite amusing checking all these high ranking OWGR events and seeing most of them are held by LIV players.

But they’re no loss to the PGAT

 

[Ian_George]

Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?

I'm not sure entirely, however:

The field in the Players between 2011-2017 was evaluated, and the quality of the field, on average, was higer than any of the 4 Majors. This was particularly true for the bottom 25% of the field, as the selection criteria is so stringent.

So, I'm guessing that there was not really a logical reason to award fewer points at the Players in comparison to the Majors?

The explanation is lobbying from the PGAT who have long pushed "the 5th major" narrative, as they have control of none of the majors. And as always, when we use the word 'narrative', it means the rest of the world isnt buying it.

I'm not certain, but, as the premium tournament of the PGAT, likely to be a combination of both of the above replies and worth the premium. As winner, Cam Smith probably appreciated it though, as would have Lahiri and Casey in 2nd and 3rd. A happy hunting ground for (now) LIV players, as Varner III and Johnson were T6th and T9th resp.
BMW at Wentworth used to get 64 minimum, but that has been dropped - Lowry getting 38-ish for his win.