LIV Golf

[Jacko_G]

The caddies aren’t employed by the PGAT - they are employed by the player , it’s up to the player to look after his caddy not the tour

A lot of the talk in regards LiV was about the players being “independent contractors” yet now people want caddies etc to be paid employees?

So which is it ? Is everyone an independent contractors who get paid by their performance or are they paid employees ?

And what Monahan does is irrelevant- I’m guessing you don’t have an issue with GN getting £30mil a year

It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best

 

[Jacko_G]

Of course the players can/should give their caddies a better financial deal but that in itself doesn’t address all the caddie issues or absolve the Tour from doing their part

We’ve all read stories about caddies not permitted access xyz clubhouse or cant eat in same place as players, cant get a lift to the course etc. Things all totally withing the remit of the Tour to correct.
Also Tour/s insist that caddies wear advertising at each event without any payment by disguising it as a 'condition of the Players entry' to the tournament that their caddy wears the supplied ‘uniform’

Yes Players can/should do more but make no mistake the Tour can/should do more too

That answer doesn't suit some agendas.

The haters won't buy it. ???

 

[r0wly86]

vive la revolution?

You have to wonder then if it was that easy why the current/past greats of the game never did it.
I suspect its only easy on paper and the reality is that 'player power' wouldn't get their employees a reimbursement for the unpaid advertising; maybe it was the Tour itself that barred the caddies from certain places rather than the course

Regardless, the Tour is the Payers and the players are the Tour but its still a problem for caddies

It is easy, if it hasn't been done before then we can infer that the players did not care enough, just like they didn't care enough to ensure caddies were given enough money if they didn't make the cut etc.

This wasn't an issue for most of the time, it has only really come to light since LIV where they have tried to use it as a PR point to make them seem better. Fact is, at any point over many decades, if the players really wanted to they could have made things a lot better for their caddies but decided not to

 

[r0wly86]

It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best

When you say PGA events do you mean the PGAT won't let them or the clubs that are hosting?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best

“Haters will hate” - is about as childish and immature as you can get

Can you tell me how many players over the last couple of decades have said anything about where caddies are allowed to go within clubhouses ?

Has any player or caddy ever complained about where they eat or change ? Is it not up to who employs the caddy to sort those issues out. If a player isn’t happy with the way his caddy is treated what has he done about it - did he ask the tour if his caddy can sit with him when eating ?

The biggest talking about in regards caddies over the last 5/10 years was when Kuchar didn’t “pay” the caddy enough when he won.

Why haven’t the players taken more care of the people they employ ? Why haven’t they raised their concerns ?

 

[r0wly86]

So pressure is pressure regardless of the situation - some handle it and control it better.

Next

absolutely nonsense. amount of pressure will vary wildly like in any situation in life. I cannot understand how you are not getting this

 

[Deleted member 1147]

It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best

That bit isn't good. I remember seeing one tournament when there was a bad weather suspension to play, the caddies had to all huddle into one small tent. As they say, the optics weren't good!

 

[Swango1980]

So, hands up. Who would like to be a caddy for a player on the PGA Tour? Not just for any of the elite golfers, but a caddy for nearly any of the PGA Tour members? I'm pretty sure Brooks Koepka's caddy isn't feeling hard done by in any respect, apart from the small issue he has to hang about with Brooks Koepka I suppose.

I've no idea what any of you do for a living, but I bet most of these caddies earn more than we could ever dream of. I'd also say it would be a lovely, pleasant job to have, in comparison to many other types of job. Caddies also have a longer career at the "top", compared to the players, and they can caddy for several players over their career.

Sure, if there are individual events were they are being treated poorly for some unknown reason, that is not good. However, I'm sure if their employers, the players, cared enough about it then they would speak out, and whoever was responsible would look to sort it out asap. If nothing gets done about it, it suggests it really isn't that big a deal.

 

[Jacko_G]

absolutely nonsense. amount of pressure will vary wildly like in any situation in life. I cannot understand how you are not getting this

Pressure is pressure my friend. It cannot be measured as some handle it better than other - to quote you I cannot understand how you are not getting this!!!

 

[Beezerk]

Haters will hate ?? - it’s like being in primary school if that’s the sort of childish responses that happen now

Well it’s sort of half true isn’t it, the phrase should actually read “trolls will hate” let’s face it, this thread has been full of wind up merchant trolls for the past few days since the last LIV event.
Just makes them look stupid and bitter in my neutral eyes.

 

[r0wly86]

Pressure is pressure my friend. It cannot be measured as some handle it better than other - to quote you I cannot understand how you are not getting this!!!

so you think

someone putting to win the monthly medal is under exactly the same amount of pressure as someone standing over a putt to win The Open and the only difference is how that person handles it? That is all I can infer from your posts, anyone can see though that it complete rubbish.

It may not be possible to accurately quantify the "amount" of pressure someone is under, but every one can give a qualified experience of when they have felt more pressure dependent on factors.

 

[Aztecs27]

So, hands up. Who would like to be a caddy for a player on the PGA Tour? Not just for any of the elite golfers, but a caddy for nearly any of the PGA Tour members? I'm pretty sure Brooks Koepka's caddy isn't feeling hard done by in any respect, apart from the small issue he has to hang about with Brooks Koepka I suppose.

I've no idea what any of you do for a living, but I bet most of these caddies earn more than we could ever dream of. I'd also say it would be a lovely, pleasant job to have, in comparison to many other types of job. Caddies also have a longer career at the "top", compared to the players, and they can caddy for several players over their career.

Sure, if there are individual events were they are being treated poorly for some unknown reason, that is not good. However, I'm sure if their employers, the players, cared enough about it then they would speak out, and whoever was responsible would look to sort it out asap. If nothing gets done about it, it suggests it really isn't that big a deal.

I'd do it at the drop of a hat if I was any good.

Funny how the world class caddies who have no issue getting a bag haven't complained? (i.e. Billy Foster) If you're good at your job, your employer will succeed, and if they succeed, so will you.

Unless you're employed by an absolute bawbag who doesn't pay you a fair share of his/her winnings.

 

[Jacko_G]

“Haters will hate” - is about as childish and immature as you can get

Can you tell me how many players over the last couple of decades have said anything about where caddies are allowed to go within clubhouses ?

Has any player or caddy ever complained about where they eat or change ? Is it not up to who employs the caddy to sort those issues out. If a player isn’t happy with the way his caddy is treated what has he done about it - did he ask the tour if his caddy can sit with him when eating ?

The biggest talking about in regards caddies over the last 5/10 years was when Kuchar didn’t “pay” the caddy enough when he won.

Why haven’t the players taken more care of the people they employ ? Why haven’t they raised their concerns ?

That's twice you've tried that pathetic line and twice you've failed to get a bite or a reaction. Try again dor a third or give up.

 

[Jacko_G]

so you think

someone putting to win the monthly medal is under exactly the same amount of pressure as someone standing over a putt to win The Open and the only difference is how that person handles it? That is all I can infer from your posts, anyone can see though that it complete rubbish.

It may not be possible to accurately quantify the "amount" of pressure someone is under, but every one can give a qualified experience of when they have felt more pressure dependent on factors.

How often people put themselves in pressure situations depends on the individual. Also who knows if they have a putt to win a medal when there are still players on the course and you more than likely don't know what other scores have came in while you are on the course.

So I see right through your flawed argument/scenario.

Putting to won the Open - plenty of examples of people who couldn't close the door. Plenty of examples of people who have handled the pressure better.

Big Monty is a classic example with his horrendous swing during the US Open.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Your reply is still nonsense, the players who employed the caddies could have at any point given the caddies a guaranteed salary, perks, etc regardless of whether they made the cut, this was always within their gift.

"Just because the players employ the caddies, it doesn’t mean the tours couldn’t have ensured those caddies were properly financially remunerated for their work."

well is kind of does, do you expect someone who is not your employer to compensate you for work you do for your employer? A caddy is an employee of the player, when they start work they can negotiate there work terms, if the players wanted to they could make them comfortable. Why should the tour pay the caddies, do you think the Premier league should pay the kit men of the premier league teams, or the WBO pay for the boxers seconds?

And yet LIV make sure the caddies are well looked after - again - there’s no reason why the other tours couldn’t have done this, and indeed - they’ve now introduced payments to players to help with exactly this on the PGA tour, an acknowledgment by themselves of where they are now falling short.

This forum is brilliant, Brooks Koepka comments on how LIV ensures caddies are well cared for, and the usual suspects try to use it as an opportunity to knock down LIV or one of the players. If you take time to read his comments, he’s not even talking about the financial aspect, he’s talking about the way they are treated as people in comparison to the PGA tour!!

 

[Slab]

It is easy, if it hasn't been done before then we can infer that the players did not care enough, just like they didn't care enough to ensure caddies were given enough money if they didn't make the cut etc.

This wasn't an issue for most of the time, it has only really come to light since LIV where they have tried to use it as a PR point to make them seem better. Fact is, at any point over many decades, if the players really wanted to they could have made things a lot better for their caddies but decided not to

I think its pretty much always been an issues for the caddies, not so much for the players and the Tours (& most of the public (us) are pretty meh about it too)
Nonetheless its a 'negative' within the sport that LIV saw as a quick win and grabbed it (who can blame them for that)

Caddy grievances I read about fall into two areas, those under the direct control of the player and those under the direct control of the Tour

We both agree that Players have direct control over the pay (& some caddies are very well paid while others live a leaner existence)
We both agree (I think) that the Tour has direct control over other grievances, like restricted access and unpaid advertising.
You suggest that if they cared enough then players could stage a protest as a way to bring about improvement/change for their employees for these other grievances (and exert an indirect control)

All I’m saying is why shouldn’t the Tour (having direct control of those areas) be held accountable to address this without the need for a player protest?

I don’t think either of us want to see PGAT players having to threaten to go on strike for these kind of things to be sorted (& I don't think it would garner the necessary support from current pgat players either)
The caddies have taken/are taking (?) the pgat tour to court over the advertising issue in recent years but I've not looked on how that's progressing

 

[r0wly86]

How often people put themselves in pressure situations depends on the individual. Also who knows if they have a putt to win a medal when there are still players on the course and you more than likely don't know what other scores have came in while you are on the course.

So I see right through your flawed argument/scenario.

Putting to won the Open - plenty of examples of people who couldn't close the door. Plenty of examples of people who have handled the pressure better.

Big Monty is a classic example with his horrendous swing during the US Open.

You are confusing two very different things.

The better you are, the more chance you will put yourself in pressure situations, and therefore be better at performing under pressure. I.e. Michael Jordan was fantastic in high pressure situations of scoring when the team needed to. I am not denying that some people are less effected by pressure.

This is completely different to your argument that all pressure is the same. Monty had faced pressure all his career, Ryder Cup, numerous Tour wins all would have been pressure situations and yet he overcame them time after time. However the US Open was more pressure, not only do majors create more pressure but that fact that Monty had been close many time before and never won before made even more pressure for him. Ergo not all pressure is the same, this was MORE pressure than he normally faced.

Also see Tom Watson in the 2009 Open, if he was in that situation in a Seniors Major or a run of the mill tournament would he have chipped so badly to leave an 8 footer to win, and would he have missed that 8 foot putt. The fact is that the putt to win the Open creates a lot more pressure than other scenarios.

 

[r0wly86]

And yet LIV make sure the caddies are well looked after - again - there’s no reason why the other tours couldn’t have done this, and indeed - they’ve now introduced payments to players to help with exactly this on the PGA tour, an acknowledgment by themselves of where they are now falling short.

This forum is brilliant, Brooks Koepka comments on how LIV ensures caddies are well cared for, and the usual suspects try to use it as an opportunity to knock down LIV or one of the players. If you take time to read his comments, he’s not even talking about the financial aspect, he’s talking about the way they are treated as people in comparison to the PGA tour!!

Your comment is laughable

you still haven't stated why the tour should pay caddies, they are after all employed by the players.

I am happy to see caddies getting a better deal, what I was pointing out is that Brooks in any point in his career could have unilaterally decided to give his caddy better pay and work conditions, he never did. But now that LIV are paying he is pushing the fact that caddies are better looked after is great. If it was so great why did he never do it when he was on the PGAT and it was completely in his gift to do so. It's plain hypocrisy

 

[r0wly86]

I think its pretty much always been an issues for the caddies, not so much for the players and the Tours (& most of the public (us) are pretty meh about it too)
Nonetheless its a 'negative' within the sport that LIV saw as a quick win and grabbed it (who can blame them for that)

Caddy grievances I read about fall into two areas, those under the direct control of the player and those under the direct control of the Tour

We both agree that Players have direct control over the pay (& some caddies are very well paid while others live a leaner existence)
We both agree (I think) that the Tour has direct control over other grievances, like restricted access and unpaid advertising.
You suggest that if they cared enough then players could stage a protest as a way to bring about improvement/change for their employees for these other grievances (and exert an indirect control)

All I’m saying is why shouldn’t the Tour (having direct control of those areas) be held accountable to address this without the need for a player protest?

I don’t think either of us want to see PGAT players having to threaten to go on strike for these kind of things to be sorted (& I don't think it would garner the necessary support from current pgat players either)
The caddies have taken/are taking (?) the pgat tour to court over the advertising issue in recent years but I've not looked on how that's progressing

I didn't mean to appear belligerent. Of course the Tour could have stepped in, and we have no idea why they didn't.

I was just saying that if it was such an issue, then the caddies I imagine would have been complaining to the players, so why didn't the players do anything.

I can only assume that caddies were not that bothered by it as they simply accepted it as part of their job

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That's twice you've tried that pathetic line and twice you've failed to get a bite or a reaction. Try again dor a third or give up.

There is no attempt to get a bite - I would hope an expect a grown man to not use those sort of phrases - but I guess it seems your go to which helps you dismiss anyone relevant counter points

And yet LIV make sure the caddies are well looked after - again - there’s no reason why the other tours couldn’t have done this, and indeed - they’ve now introduced payments to players to help with exactly this on the PGA tour, an acknowledgment by themselves of where they are now falling short.

This forum is brilliant, Brooks Koepka comments on how LIV ensures caddies are well cared for, and the usual suspects try to use it as an opportunity to knock down LIV or one of the players. If you take time to read his comments, he’s not even talking about the financial aspect, he’s talking about the way they are treated as people in comparison to the PGA tour!!

Can you see how blinkered you are towards LIV

In response to the caddy issue all I can see people question is the players - can’t see anyone “knock down LIV” over it but I can see people asking why the players haven’t done anything about it when they are the ones that employ the caddy ?

So can you answer why Koepka didn’t say anything about the treatment of caddies when he was playing on the PGAT ? If they were treated so badly why was nothing said by all the players ?

In fact any players autobiography I have read they don’t mention how poor their caddies are treated ? In fact some talk about how much of a laugh they have on your