LIV Golf

[evemccc]

A simple alternative to the OWGR, and one that should be relatable to golf fans the world over, would be to use a WHS type system at all professional tournaments.

That way the strength of the field wouldn't matter so much. A course rating could be generated to reflect the difficulty of the course from the back tees, using tournament green speeds, etc.

We'd then be able to see who was the best week in, week out, and just how good they were compared to us mere mortals. There might not be one player at the top of the ranking each week as ties would be more common but that's no big deal.

Why you could even combine men's and ladies "indexes" into the same table so the best golfer across the board could be identified.

But would it work cross-border? ???

 

[Mel Smooth]

World rankings become meaningless when you split a sport. (Eg darts and boxing)

That is also the difference between the Saudis sponsoring a Tour event and deliberately looking to take over a part of it.

In the end, the sport suffers, but a few rich folk get even richer.

How is the sport suffering, the greatest footballer of a generation has never played in the PL, but football hasn't suffered for it.

Why can't golf exist in different formats?

 

[Backsticks]

That's what happens when you split a sport. (Eg darts and boxing)

That is also the difference between the Saudis sponsoring a Tour event and deliberately looking to take over a part of it.

In the end, the sport suffers, but a few rich folk get even richer.

Agree. Bottom line then, that the Saudi venture had done nothing but harm the pro golf product.

I get that Saudi wants to improve its image, and promote itself. Even though the rest of the world is repulsed, if you believe your way of life of beheadings, a woman's testimony being only worth half a man's, that atheists are classed as terrorists, and that alcoholic beverages are criminal, thats fine. They are entitled to promote their case.
But dividing and harming the quality of elite golf is not the way to win friends, promote, and win support for that type of society. Removing Cam Smith from the PGAT is not a way to convince the average golf fan that beheadings are a good thing.

 

[evemccc]

Agree. Bottom line then, that the Saudi venture had done nothing but harm the pro golf product.

I get that Saudi wants to improve its image, and promote itself. Even though the rest of the world is repulsed, if you believe your way of life of beheadings, a woman's testimony being only worth half a man's, that atheists are classed as terrorists, and that alcoholic beverages are criminal, thats fine. They are entitled to promote their case.
But dividing and harming the quality of elite golf is not the way to win friends, promote, and win support for that type of society. Removing Cam Smith from the PGAT is not a way to convince the average golf fan that beheadings are a good thing.

I wouldn’t be so sure ‘everyone’ in the world shares your sensibilities and the norms of your culture / nation

The world allows and votes for the Japanese to continue whaling for ‘reasons’ - despite Western / European antipathy

The world hasn’t reacted at all in uproar against China despite Xinjiang and threats to Taiwan and repression of Hong Kong, because of ‘reasons’

The next 20-30 years of this century will see even less the (past) predominance of western sensibilities and norms, as some kind of moral or coercive authority

It may seem abhorrent, but it’s reality

 

[IanM]

How is the sport suffering, the greatest footballer of a generation has never played in the PL, but football hasn't suffered for it.

Why can't golf exist in different formats?

Silly analogy when talking about rankings. The greatest footballers face off at World Cups and international club tournaments all the time.

The boxing and darts example I gave was because years back, you knew who the world champion was. Now, no one knows (or cares) as there umpteen versions of it. Except for the odd unification bout. To compound it, its all on pay per view so only the very keen bother to watch.

In golf, if some players only play in an invite only Tour, they are out of the Mainstream.

Golf already exists in several formats (the various Tours)

LIV players made a big deal about resigning. Then realised it had consequences, so they back tracked and sued!

54 hole shotgun with made up pointless meaningless teams? No ta.

 

[Backsticks]

I wouldn’t be so sure ‘everyone’ in the world shares your sensibilities and the norms of your culture / nation

The world allows and votes for the Japanese to continue whaling for ‘reasons’ - despite Western / European antipathy

The world hasn’t reacted at all in uproar against China despite Xinjiang and threats to Taiwan and repression of Hong Kong, because of ‘reasons’

The next 20-30 years of this century will see even less the (past) predominance of western sensibilities and norms, as some kind of moral or coercive authority

It may seem abhorrent, but it’s reality

Sure. I think we are all open minded enough to both respect other points of view, and consider various practices on their merits. Beheadings may indeed be a great addition to other societies. But my point is that provoking a civil war in pro golf is not a good way to promote their case.

 

[evemccc]

I think it is highly relevant to this thread - and would add to the quality of discussion - if the original PGL proposals were discussed in context of PGA Vs Liv

I can’t remember what they were…I seem to remember Rory wasn’t against them..said there was some merit to it, and worthy of further discussion or investigation?
No Laying Up were between positive and quite sanguine about it, I think I can recall?

How does LIV differ, and would the LIV-haters and establishment golf media be equally against it?

Is it purely the Saudi connection which is the key problem?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Silly analogy when talking about rankings. The greatest footballers face off at World Cups and international club tournaments all the time.

The boxing and darts example I gave was because years back, you knew who the world champion was. Now, no one knows (or cares) as there umpteen versions of it. Except for the odd unification bout. To compound it, its all on pay per view so only the very keen bother to watch.

In golf, if some players only play in an invite only Tour, they are out of the Mainstream.

Golf already exists in several formats (the various Tours)

LIV players made a big deal about resigning. Then realised it had consequences, so they back tracked and sued!

54 hole shotgun with made up pointless meaningless teams? No ta.

Why is it silly?

The greatest golfers will still face each other in majors - akin to the Football World Cup - except they are more frequent. You can compare it to boxing or darts if it suits your argument, I can compare it to many other sports where players compete in completely different series, then come together every so often to work out who is the best - and of course, that's subjective as it's down to their performance at that time.


You just don't like LIV, I get it, but plenty do and are enjoying the change to what is a traditionally boring (to many) format of 72 holes spread out over 4 long days.

I'll sit down tonight at about 6, watch LIV in it's entirety to the end, knowing I haven't missed one single shot worth seeing - brilliant.

 

[PJ87]

Lowry on No Laying Up was saying he felt the group at the meeting in Delaware was secure to pgat.
Guys in the 50-150 rankings count for nothing.
Unless LIV signs a handful from McIlroy, Scheffler, Cantlay, Rahm, Thomas, etc, I can see why LiV would now not be interested in coexist talks, as they have nothing to bargain with.

Liv could sign the entire top 50 and they slowly start to drop but then rise when majors get won by the Liv players

Yet some would still find holes

Bias is set and unbreakable

 

[Crow]

At the sharp end at the top of the pyramid though, its wins and placings that matter, not absolute scores. A 63 in the last round to win the Masters is not worth the same as a 63 in the first round of a Nordic golf league tournament.

That's an element of a player's ability to compete at the highest level of pressure, not their skill level.
Yes, some players are better at the sharp end than others, but in terms of a ranking system to qualify for top end competition (majors etc), I think a WHS type of arrangement would work well.

If you want to see who is the best competitor then look at their results, many times the argument has been made on here that being OWGR number 1 is worthless compared to winning a major so it's not as though people see it as a goal in itself.

I'm suggesting a simple means of rating players that crosses all tours.
And it would be nice to see just how good the professionals are compared to us.

 

[BubbaP]

A simple alternative to the OWGR, and one that should be relatable to golf fans the world over, would be to use a WHS type system at all professional tournaments.

That way the strength of the field wouldn't matter so much. A course rating could be generated to reflect the difficulty of the course from the back tees, using tournament green speeds, etc.

We'd then be able to see who was the best week in, week out, and just how good they were compared to us mere mortals. There might not be one player at the top of the ranking each week as ties would be more common but that's no big deal.

Why you could even combine men's and ladies "indexes" into the same table so the best golfer across the board could be identified.

Not quite the same but they are now incorporating a "strokes gained" system

https://www.owgr.com/news/owgr-launches-modified-ranking-system

 

[larmen]

See I like the fact I can just sit here with my PC screen and have it playing in the background

I almost dont want them to be picked up by TV because the youtube side is just decent (imo)

if they do get picked up id like to see it free to air still, and available via youtube aswell ..

That nails it for me. I don’t have Sky Sports, and this is the available golf for me to watch (didn’t tune in this time, though)
Liv has the advantage of not relying on TV money and having to be shown begonia pay wall.

Do I care who wins? No. But there will be some quality golf on the screen if I want it for free.

 

[Wilson]

Why is it silly?

The greatest golfers will still face each other in majors - akin to the Football World Cup - except they are more frequent. You can compare it to boxing or darts if it suits your argument, I can compare it to many other sports where players compete in completely different series, then come together every so often to work out who is the best - and of course, that's subjective as it's down to their performance at that time.


You just don't like LIV, I get it, but plenty do and are enjoying the change to what is a traditionally boring (to many) format of 72 holes spread out over 4 long days.

I'll sit down tonight at about 6, watch LIV in it's entirety to the end, knowing I haven't missed one single shot worth seeing - brilliant.

Come on, lets not pretend people are suddenly tuning into LIV because the event is one round less than normal. If it had a radically different format, such as the difference between Test Cricket and T20, you may have a point, but three rounds instead of four isn’t going to get more/different people to watch, IMO.

As for OWGR, if LIV wants to be part of it, they need to add an extra round and a cut, not that difficult for them to comprehend I hope.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

LXXII Golf just doesn't have the same ring to it though.

I watched some of it yesterday and it was a bit of a culture shock. The coverage was atrociously bad, I thought. Screen very busy, too much background noise and just a machine gun switch from shot to shot with no time for any context; just a swing and a ball landing somewhere. As for the commentary - constant inane chatter! Frankly, I found it very unsettling and only lasted about 15 mins.

If all the traditional golf fans liked it Liv wouldn't be doing their job properly..

It's supposed to be different, bucking against the norm/tradition and aimed at bringing in a different audience.

 

[Backsticks]

If all the traditional golf fans liked it Liv wouldn't be doing their job properly..

It's supposed to be different, bucking against the norm/tradition and aimed at bringing in a different audience.

I know right. Because so many people are like - 72 holes?, no way, I want fewer holes dude, 54 holes? wow, fantastic, thats such a game changer, I'm in!!!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm always perplexed that people seem to think that if DJ and Cam Smith for example fall outside the top 100 of the OWGR points then they are now not 2 of the best Golfers in the world.

Of course they are and that's why the OWGR could look for the 1st time not accurately representing the list and lose some meaning.

As each top player moves across and on recent history we have to believe they will continue to trickle across to Liv the OWGR becomes more obsolete..

That is a fact...

Rankings don’t always reflect playing ability and never have done

The rankings were started to give the majors a way of sorting out who plays in the majors - before that they used to “invite” from various lists

The rankings reflect the player’s performance over a two year period against a set criteria whilst playing in eligible tournaments and on eligible tours. It’s mainly a reflection on form over those events. If DJ does go out of the top 100 then it won’t stop him from being one of the best golfers in the world, same with Smith etc

The only players on LIV that are worried about ranking points are those players that don’t have extended exemptions - DJ won’t care , Smith wont etc. The likes of Gooch etc do care because that’s their way into the majors

Whilst the majors use them for entry then they won’t become obsolete

Before LIV started they knew the requirements for ranking points , they knew it would take over a year - there seems to be the idea that everything should change to fit in LIV - why should that be the case , surely if LIV want to be part of the system then they need to fit in. Imo it’s arrogance that the sport should change to suit LIV , and I’m glad that the tours etc are standing up to them

All somebody needs to do, is set up a database that represents the LIV players compared to the rest of the world, it's not that hard to do - infact I wouldn't be surprised if the LIV team are working on it right now - possibly discreetly or by funding some data analysists. Make the information publically accesible so the public can see the CORRECT world golf rankings, and the OWGR is no longer reliable, and once it is no longer reliable, there's a valid argument that it shouldn't be used as qulaification to Major golf competitions.
Then you are left with the argument that players shouldn't be allowed to compete in them because they play in a different series - which is dangerous ground.

Why would they be “correct” world rankings ?

The system is already in place , it’s been in place for 30 plus years - if LIV want to have ranking points for their events then they need to abide by the same criteria that every single other Tour does , why should they be treated any differently? Why should everything be changed to suit them

 

[IanM]

I know right. Because so many people are like - 72 holes?, no way, I want fewer holes dude, 54 holes? wow, fantastic, thats such a game changer, I'm in!!!

My brain can't deal with all that. Can't we just have a single par 3 inside Wembley Stadium? They all play that a few times each?

The format isn't the issue for me. Its the hypocrisy of the players. Leave or don't leave the existing tours. Shup up and count your money.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Agree. Bottom line then, that the Saudi venture had done nothing but harm the pro golf product.

The PGA Tour does not own golf.

Liv has done nothing wrong in starting up a new tour to challenge it?

A large part of why we are where we are is because of the PGA Tours actions and stance.
So you can not blame all the harm on Liv?..

 

[IanM]

The PGA Tour does not own golf.

Liv has done nothing wrong in starting up a new tour to challenge it?
..

Correct.

BUT why are LIV players so keen to return to play in PGA/DP events when it suits them, having so dramatically and noisily stormed out??

 

[BubbaP]

Correct.

BUT why are LIV players so keen to return to play in PGA/DP events when it suits them, having so dramatically and noisily stormed out??

Not sure what news you are reading, are you suggesting 48 players have stormed out of something?
#confused