LIV Golf

[Deleted member 15344]

I am not sure that LIV would care too much. I actually think that the PGA Tour may have been their own worst enemy here. The end result is that LIV may have to change to become a Tour matching the PGA model but actually being a truely global tour with events all over the world. Should that happen, it could become over time a whole diferrent prospect that could seriously challenge the PGA Tour as the number one tour in golf. It certainly coul attract golfers from around the world who want to play at the highest level but also want to play in their home country or be able to pick a schedule that does not necessitate a move to the US.

That would certainly make the global landscape interesting.

There was a lot of talk about them being a global tour and yet next year most of their events appear to be in the same US market

Golf events have been played around the world for years , the big players have gone down to Australia to play the events but it just hasn’t grabbed - the tours have tried but unfortunately the two main golf markets are the US and Europe

 

[Swango1980]

I am not sure that LIV would care too much. I actually think that the PGA Tour may have been their own worst enemy here. The end result is that LIV may have to change to become a Tour matching the PGA model but actually being a truely global tour with events all over the world. Should that happen, it could become over time a whole diferrent prospect that could seriously challenge the PGA Tour as the number one tour in golf. It certainly coul attract golfers from around the world who want to play at the highest level but also want to play in their home country or be able to pick a schedule that does not necessitate a move to the US.

That would certainly make the global landscape interesting.

That will only happen once virtually all golfers buy into it, so that there is no reason why the best golfers in the world would not want to play in it. It would also require strong qualification criteria, so that there is confidence that the best golfers, including up and coming great golfers will be able to earn their spot on LIV. There are big obstacles to LIV in achieving this, but it is the outcome they need to seriously challenge the PGA Tour (if you are talking about being a "legitimate" tour that most golf fans and players will buy into).

They have burst on to the scene by the huge sums of money they have thrown at it, and thus they have produced something bigger than an alternative tour that could have been created that needed to be self sustaining from the start. However, that could be their long term downfall, as they have seriously upset many large golf fans and the current major players in golf, particularly the PGA Tour. So, it now seems like it will be very much harder for them to win over their support, as many will strongly oppose LIV for a long time (or forever) based on the scale of negativity they feel now.

A longer term strategy might have been to create one or 2 annual events and some obscure point within the season. Play these events at venues not familiar with golf at the moment, and maybe have one or 2 slight differences to how the tournament is played. Have huge prize money so that the best players are still keen to play, and state how those players can qualify. Whether it be the top 48 players in the world, or top 30 in world, plus Major Winners, plus top players in the other leading tours, etc. Promise to give a certain amount to charities, to try and promote the positives stories to counter the negative ones surrounding money. If it goes well, try and create an extra event per year, until it resembles more of a mini tour

I'm not sure the above would still ultimately work, but if they could have started of with simply one event that required qualification and positive stories related to donating money to charity, the PGA would find it harder to battle against. Obviously, as it grows, then the PGA Tour would find it negatively impacts them more, but with LIV already established then there would be little for the PGA to stop its growth. Legally anyway, they'd need to improve their product to compete.

But, LIV has tried to create a significant tour right from the start. 7 events is a lot, and rapidly growing next year and beyond. They've scared the PGA right from the start, and the PGA have been pushed into a very strong reaction. It would be naïve to think they would have been any more lenient, of course they will do their best to protect their product. Their reaction has persuaded many of the worlds best players to distance themselves from LIV.

So, it feels almost impossible that LIV will now ever be able to overcome these hurdles. It can have all the money in the world, but if many golfing fans hate it and at least a generation of the worlds best golfers have no intention in playing in it, then it is hard to see how it will ever be taken seriously. Even if they were flexible enough to fully deal with the qualification and format issues, they have still alienated many of the worlds best golfers, so many would still likely stay away from LIV, unless LIV reaches a critical mass in attracting enough of the best golfers, for the few remaining ones to have little choice to follow (i.e. if the PGA Tour pretty much died)

 

[BubbaP]

Every player has the opportunity to qualify for the biggest events, if they are good enough. Sure, we know that there are other ways to qualify. There are plenty of players who play at the Masters who are not good enough to win (several past winners), but all the best players are still able to compete.

There are 2 obstacles that don't make this the case for LIV. Firstly, players have to really be invited first, and even if they are willing to play, it may only happen if they can negotiate a massive contract. Secondly, it is clear that most of the top players in the world simply do not recognise LIV as a legitimate tour, by not agreeing to play despite the money on offer. A tour will never become great if the greatest players don't want to play on it.

LIV has not managed to get over those hurdles yet. And, in all honesty, the Saudi Arabian link is controversial to.some, but I'd agree it is less controversial to broadcasters. The biggest controversy for them is that I'd is quite clear the biggest golf tour in the world is 100% against LIV. Certainly, that puts Sky in a position to not get anywhere close to.supporting LIV. However, any broadcaster interested in showing golf will think twice, as they'd not earn brownie points with the PGA (if they wanted to show their events in future). Furthermore, although some like LIV, it is clear many fans also hate LIV. So, broadcasting it massively splits opinion, which makes it controversial. If most of the best players in the world had no issue with it, and there is a guaranteed route for every player to.play on LIV if good enough, then things would start to change

Agree on the Masters. But I can follow the nostalgia/traditional argument for past winners.
But can the same apply to those with most twitter replies?
The Masters regularly posts highly in the favourite/best major polls - perhaps on entertainment?

I think it is fair to conclude you dodged the question!

Suspect Paige S is gutted this isn't going on in women's golf.

Always dangerous to conclude based on internet observations, but it has felt to me that it's the USA audience where they (some) have been clamouring for it to be on TV. Not really seeing it to same level elsewhere.
Hope it doesn't go Sky in the UK as I couldn't seeing them doing a decent job as it doesn't fit the Sky taking model IMO.

 

[GB72]

No idea as not researched it much at all (really not that concerned as a whole, golf is golf, really do not care much for all the willy waving about who is the best, who has the best golfers, who was here first etc as they are all as bad as each other save for the sportswashing element) but could the LIV Tour fulfil the ruote to qualifying criteria by setting the requirement as finishing in the top 20 of the PGA Tour Rankings or the top 5 or 10 on the other tours. You have set a qualifying criteria but also immediately set the other tours up as feeder tours to LIV and ensured that you have the best performing golfers each year. Yes, some will decline but if you take those currently signed up and then double the number of slots the following year to incorporate the new qualifiers then you have a tour field. Only requirement, you play in events in your home courntry.

Seems simple.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No idea as not researched it much at all (really not that concerned as a whole, golf is golf, really do not care much for all the willy waving about who is the best, who has the best golfers, who was here first etc as they are all as bad as each other save for the sportswashing element) but could the LIV Tour fulfil the ruote to qualifying criteria by setting the requirement as finishing in the top 20 of the PGA Tour Rankings or the top 5 or 10 on the other tours. You have set a qualifying criteria but also immediately set the other tours up as feeder tours to LIV and ensured that you have the best performing golfers each year. Yes, some will decline but if you take those currently signed up and then double the number of slots the following year to incorporate the new qualifiers then you have a tour field. Only requirement, you play in events in your home courntry.

Seems simple.

I think any qualifying between the two has long since gone - LIV want to pick and choice who they want playing and each player picked will be done for strategic reasons to help market the tour - it’s not a “open to all” tour and also there is a huge imbalance between the money for the players

There is so many different ways that a combined tour could have been created and working with all the tours but the way they went about recruiting players and GN grudge was always going to create division

 

[BubbaP]

I think any qualifying between the two has long since gone - LIV want to pick and choice who they want playing and each player picked will be done for strategic reasons to help market the tour - it’s not a “open to all” tour and also there is a huge imbalance between the money for the players

There is so many different ways that a combined tour could have been created and working with all the tours but the way they went about recruiting players and GN grudge was always going to create division

I thought the original proposal was the top 48 ranked players qualified, and they played them in the 'quieter' weeks so they remained on existing tours.
Do think was naive to think Jay & co would accept that mind!
Once hostilities began (all sides) then as you say working together seems a long way away now

 

[GB72]

I think any qualifying between the two has long since gone - LIV want to pick and choice who they want playing and each player picked will be done for strategic reasons to help market the tour - it’s not a “open to all” tour and also there is a huge imbalance between the money for the players

There is so many different ways that a combined tour could have been created and working with all the tours but the way they went about recruiting players and GN grudge was always going to create division

Was not talking about a combined tour or any agreement, just simply and arbitrarily put in place qualfyng criteria based on your ranking on another tour. Not sure why it would need the approval of other tours to implement as qualification would mean leaving the tour and joining the LIV tour. Would provide a qualification criteria for world ranking points and immediately place all other tours as feeder tours for LIV. Was not looking at it as an amicable solution, was looking at it as a power play to cement them above everybody else and if a signficant percentage of the top golfers on each tour signed up each year, the other tours would wither, pretty much like the PGA did to the european tour.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I thought the original proposal was the top 48 ranked players qualified, and they played them in the 'quieter' weeks so they remained on existing tours.
Do think was naive to think Jay & co would accept that mind!
Once hostilities began (all sides) then as you say working together seems a long way away now

The tours could have created 5 events say - one on each continent, top 20 from each tour plays - money put up by all the tours and held during quieter weeks , could have been good

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Was not talking about a combined tour or any agreement, just simply and arbitrarily put in place qualfyng criteria based on your ranking on another tour. Not sure why it would need the approval of other tours to implement as qualification would mean leaving the tour and joining the LIV tour. Would provide a qualification criteria for world ranking points and immediately place all other tours as feeder tours for LIV. Was not looking at it as an amicable solution, was looking at it as a power play to cement them above everybody else and if a signficant percentage of the top golfers on each tour signed up each year, the other tours would wither, pretty much like the PGA did to the european tour.

That’s what LIV have already tried to do though - go for the best players in the world and say you can come and play

Using another tours “rankings” would satisfy any qualifying requirements unless there is a relationship between the two tours

LIV need to create an open Qualfying criteria within their tour that anyone can enter and gain a tour card from that Qualfying

 

[pokerjoke]

That will only happen once virtually all golfers buy into it, so that there is no reason why the best golfers in the world would not want to play in it. It would also require strong qualification criteria, so that there is confidence that the best golfers, including up and coming great golfers will be able to earn their spot on LIV. There are big obstacles to LIV in achieving this, but it is the outcome they need to seriously challenge the PGA Tour (if you are talking about being a "legitimate" tour that most golf fans and players will buy into).

They have burst on to the scene by the huge sums of money they have thrown at it, and thus they have produced something bigger than an alternative tour that could have been created that needed to be self sustaining from the start. However, that could be their long term downfall, as they have seriously upset many large golf fans and the current major players in golf, particularly the PGA Tour. So, it now seems like it will be very much harder for them to win over their support, as many will strongly oppose LIV for a long time (or forever) based on the scale of negativity they feel now.

A longer term strategy might have been to create one or 2 annual events and some obscure point within the season. Play these events at venues not familiar with golf at the moment, and maybe have one or 2 slight differences to how the tournament is played. Have huge prize money so that the best players are still keen to play, and state how those players can qualify. Whether it be the top 48 players in the world, or top 30 in world, plus Major Winners, plus top players in the other leading tours, etc. Promise to give a certain amount to charities, to try and promote the positives stories to counter the negative ones surrounding money. If it goes well, try and create an extra event per year, until it resembles more of a mini tour

I'm not sure the above would still ultimately work, but if they could have started of with simply one event that required qualification and positive stories related to donating money to charity, the PGA would find it harder to battle against. Obviously, as it grows, then the PGA Tour would find it negatively impacts them more, but with LIV already established then there would be little for the PGA to stop its growth. Legally anyway, they'd need to improve their product to compete.

But, LIV has tried to create a significant tour right from the start. 7 events is a lot, and rapidly growing next year and beyond. They've scared the PGA right from the start, and the PGA have been pushed into a very strong reaction. It would be naïve to think they would have been any more lenient, of course they will do their best to protect their product. Their reaction has persuaded many of the worlds best players to distance themselves from LIV.

So, it feels almost impossible that LIV will now ever be able to overcome these hurdles. It can have all the money in the world, but if many golfing fans hate it and at least a generation of the worlds best golfers have no intention in playing in it, then it is hard to see how it will ever be taken seriously. Even if they were flexible enough to fully deal with the qualification and format issues, they have still alienated many of the worlds best golfers, so many would still likely stay away from LIV, unless LIV reaches a critical mass in attracting enough of the best golfers, for the few remaining ones to have little choice to follow (i.e. if the PGA Tour pretty much died)

Can u shorten your posts please.
I’m sure yours are worth reading but I can’t be bothered they are too looooooongggg

 

[GB72]

That’s what LIV have already tried to do though - go for the best players in the world and say you can come and play

Using another tours “rankings” would satisfy any qualifying requirements unless there is a relationship between the two tours

LIV need to create an open Qualfying criteria within their tour that anyone can enter and gain a tour card from that Qualfying

I am not sure that is correct. The issue is that LIV invite the best golfers but not that they guarantee a qualifying route. By setting in stone that invites to join the tour would be extended to all golfers in the top 20 rankings on the PGA tour and the 10 5 on the European and Asian Tours, there is a route to qualification, there is no need to have a relationship, just a set criteria for qualifying to join. As I said, just hypotesising here, not read the specifics but not sure why you cannot use someone elses rankings as a basis for qualifying for another tour. Anyone can still enter, they just need to qualify for the PGA tour and perform well and all that LIV would be doing would be creating a leval above the current tours.

 

[Swango1980]

Can u shorten your posts please.
I’m sure yours are worth reading but I can’t be bothered they are too looooooongggg

It's a fair comment.

To summarise: LIV have burst on scene, but may have severely damaged any long term success by pissing off most of the key bodies in golf, players and fans. Had they started slower, maybe one event, and allowed qualification to it and also offered huge sums to charity, they may well have been able to achieve long term success much more easily.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I am not sure that is correct. The issue is that LIV invite the best golfers but not that they guarantee a qualifying route. By setting in stone that invites to join the tour would be extended to all golfers in the top 20 rankings on the PGA tour and the 10 5 on the European and Asian Tours, there is a route to qualification, there is no need to have a relationship, just a set criteria for qualifying to join. As I said, just hypotesising here, not read the specifics but not sure why you cannot use someone elses rankings as a basis for qualifying for another tour. Anyone can still enter, they just need to qualify for the PGA tour and perform well and all that LIV would be doing would be creating a leval above the current tours.

Create an “open qualifying school”

Plus local qualifying- ie Monday Qualfying for the event

 

[GB72]

Create an “open qualifying school”

Plus local qualifying- ie Monday Qualfying for the event

View attachment 44355

Pretty simple to arrange then. A short qualfying tournament pre-season for a few places and a chance for some local pros to qualify which helps promote the global nature of the tour. Seems pretty easy to achieve if they decide to go as a full global tour. Add to that invites to the top golfers on all the other tours. There really is nothing that difficult to achieve and what has gone from a small number of elite golfers taking a few weeks off the PGA to what could be a bigger, more global tour sucking up spomsors and TV money. PGA tour could have shot themselves in the foot. As I said, all hypothesis and conjecture but should be fun to watch it devlop.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Pretty simple to arrange then. A short qualfying tournament pre-season for a few places and a chance for some local pros to qualify which helps promote the global nature of the tour. Seems pretty easy to achieve if they decide to go as a full global tour. Add to that invites to the top golfers on all the other tours. There really is nothing that difficult to achieve and what has gone from a small number of elite golfers taking a few weeks off the PGA to what could be a bigger, more global tour sucking up spomsors and TV money. PGA tour could have shot themselves in the foot. As I said, all hypothesis and conjecture but should be fun to watch it devlop.

If it’s easy to achieve then you would have to question why they aren’t doing it - they don’t want to conform they want things to change to fit them

Maybe because they are paying a lot of golfers money to be there which doesn’t leave many spots open for players to qualify into

They don’t want those level of golfers - they want the best that can be bought plus players that can be marketed- for a perfect comparison just think of the European Super League that was attempted

 

[GB72]

If it’s easy to achieve then you would have to question why they aren’t doing it - they don’t want to conform they want things to change to fit them

Maybe because they are paying a lot of golfers money to be there which doesn’t leave many spots open for players to qualify into

They don’t want those level of golfers - they want the best that can be bought plus players that can be marketed- for a perfect comparison just think of the European Super League that was attempted

Just an issue with a starting something new, having to work out ways to deal with and circumvaigate the rigid establishment. As as I said, I think this may work out far worse for the PGA Tour. What was on the table originally was a novel, big money few events which woud have had little impact on them overall. Now they may be faced with a full on tour in direct competition and with nearly bottomless pockets. As I said, I have no skin in the game, no real care about the final standings when this is all over but it will be fun to watch.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

If it’s easy to achieve then you would have to question why they aren’t doing it - they don’t want to conform they want things to change to fit them

Maybe because they are paying a lot of golfers money to be there which doesn’t leave many spots open for players to qualify into

They don’t want those level of golfers - they want the best that can be bought plus players that can be marketed- for a perfect comparison just think of the European Super League that was attempted

Yep they cannot grow the game or get bigger because of how they've set themselves up with fields limited to 48 and the shotgun start. All they can achieve is to get 'better' and by that it's 'buying' those currently in the top 35 or so in the OWGR and therefore the 'best' players.

Although that won't even be the case because Tiger is still by some distance the biggest draw in golf, but is nowhere near being the best.

 

[GB72]

Yep they cannot grow the game or get bigger because of how they've set themselves up with fields limited to 48 and the shotgun start. All they can achieve is to get 'better' and by that it's 'buying' those currently in the top 35 or so in the OWGR and therefore the 'best' players.

Although that won't even be the case because Tiger is still by some distance the biggest draw in golf, but is nowhere near being the best.

Would be interested to see how much of the orignal plan of 48 golfers, 54 holes etc was put in place to co-exist with the existing tours and how that changes if they are pushed into adopting a more traditional tour struture to try and compete a surpass the existing tours.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Would be interested to see how much of the orignal plan of 48 golfers, 54 holes etc was put in place to co-exist with the existing tours and how that changes if they are pushed into adopting a more traditional tour struture to try and compete a surpass the existing tours.

The whole 48 players was about getting the best and then shotgun start to give it the short format to try and attract the younger generation etc and grow the game

If they change that to go more traditional then they are no different apart from having big purses - it goes against everything they have said , it’s all been built upon the idea of being different

And if they bring in more and more players then what happens to the team aspect they are trying to push ?

If it ends up being the same as other tours then what is the point of players moving beyond getting more money

 

[GB72]

The whole 48 players was about getting the best and then shotgun start to give it the short format to try and attract the younger generation etc and grow the game

If they change that to go more traditional then they are no different apart from having big purses - it goes against everything they have said , it’s all been built upon the idea of being different

And if they bring in more and more players then what happens to the team aspect they are trying to push ?

If it ends up being the same as other tours then what is the point of players moving beyond getting more money

Same reason players move to the PGA Tour, exactly that, more money and as may happen if a tipping point is reached, better fields and the chance to play in a number of different countries. Tryiing something different is one thing, trying something different wihen the establishment is does not like different is anotehr and then you have to blend in to make change, like joining a club with a dress code with the intention fo complying until you can get it voted of. As I said, if it stays as it is or becomes a different tour, it really makes litlte difference to me, it is like arguing whether you prefer the WBO or WBC boxing belts, same people, same sport, neither organisation really ideal so happy just to sit back and watch the fireworks.