LIV Golf

[Deleted member 21445]

And, is there a distinction now between 'direct' (bad) and 'indirect' (good/ acceptable) Saudi money?

I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.

 

[RRidges]

Total dosser doing that, show some class pal.

GolfWRX put it down to a 'brainfart' by Scheffler after going +4 over 3 holes. Apparently good relationship both before and after the incident.
https://www.golfwrx.com/691013/the-...dent-in-memphis-isnt-what-people-think-it-is/

 

[RRidges]

Savage!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1557826392347353090

Simply demonstrates the rubbish that can be manufactured on Twitter!
I trust you noticed the spelling of the account and the fact that the text was posted cf voice!

 

[Mel Smooth]

I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.

The majority of Saudi money comes from oil. Nothing wrong with that. It’s not blood money, or dirty money, it’s oil money. Of course people who are against LIV or the Saudis will try and argue that to make people feel uncomfortable about watching LIV events and following the series. It happens often enough on here.
The issue in SA is the moral code and legal system, which is outdated, brutal and full of prejudice. It needs to change but it won’t happen overnight, and there will be huge opposition from many of the traditionalists in the country who quite literally put their faith in a shariah law.

Obviously can’t go too in depth as the topic quickly turns political, but there are many people taking the easy option of discrediting LIV over the Saudi funding, without really studying the background of the country.

 

[r0wly86]

The majority of Saudi money comes from oil. Nothing wrong with that. It’s not blood money, or dirty money, it’s oil money. Of course people who are against LIV or the Saudis will try and argue that to make people feel uncomfortable about watching LIV events and following the series. It happens often enough on here.
The issue in SA is the moral code and legal system, which is outdated, brutal and full of prejudice. It needs to change but it won’t happen overnight, and there will be huge opposition from many of the traditionalists in the country who quite literally put their faith in a shariah law.

Obviously can’t go too in depth as the topic quickly turns political, but there are many people taking the easy option of discrediting LIV over the Saudi funding, without really studying the background of the country.

No one is saying that Saudi influence is bad because it comes from oil, that is a wilful misrepresentation of what the issues is.

The issue is the nature of the Saudi government which is totalitarian, has a long history of human rights abuses, and accused of torturing and murdering a US journalist. The money made by oil has partly been put into the PIF, which is one of the largest and most opaque sovereign wealth fund in the world.

The LIV tour, is sportswashing pure and simple, it is not different from the 1936 Belin Olympic the Sochi Winter Games etc

There is a big difference between avoiding firms that have been invested in by PIF and the LIV.

1. Those companies are publicly traded, no one can stop them from buying shares.
2. It is not feasible for every person to look at every single investor of every single company that they use, or look at where every petrol station gets the crude oil from, to suggest it is on in the same is again wilful misrepresentation.
3. The purpose of the PIF investing in those companies it not control or PR it is a way of diversifying their money from oil in a climate where the world is looking to move away from fossil fuels. The LIV tour purpose is sportswashing, it is form of propaganda trying to improve their image in the world

 

[D-S]

The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.

 

[Slab]

The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.

And I suppose its also true to say that the irony is that the money the players get from liv comes from (among others) Britain and America

 

[Mel Smooth]

And I suppose its also true to say that the irony is that the money the players get from liv comes from (among others) Britain and America

I’ve just put 30 quids worth in. Hope Cam Smith spends my money wisely. ?

 

[Springveldt]

I’ve just put 30 quids worth in. Hope Cam Smith spends my money wisely. ?

Were are you going, the corner shop?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Why is Sheffler walking in front of Smith a LIV issue?
Neither is confirmed as having gone over to LIV.

Just looked like one pissed off golfer walking in front of his PP.

 

[RRidges]

Why is Sheffler walking in front of Smith a LIV issue?
Neither is confirmed as having gone over to LIV.

Just looked like one pissed off golfer walking in front of his PP.

Twitter folk have vivid imaginations and see conspiracies everywhere! And that doesn't include either the many LIV Bots and the far fewer anti LIV Bot Bots!

 

[Deleted member 30522]

The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.

Why is that sad? That's exactly the issue, it's LIV that's the issue, not the individuals concerned, so yes if Scheffler was joining he'd be attacked for it

 

[howbow88]

The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.

You are quite the philosopher.

 

[howbow88]

No one is saying that Saudi influence is bad because it comes from oil, that is a wilful misrepresentation of what the issues is.

The issue is the nature of the Saudi government which is totalitarian, has a long history of human rights abuses, and accused of torturing and murdering a US journalist. The money made by oil has partly been put into the PIF, which is one of the largest and most opaque sovereign wealth fund in the world.

The LIV tour, is sportswashing pure and simple, it is not different from the 1936 Belin Olympic the Sochi Winter Games etc

There is a big difference between avoiding firms that have been invested in by PIF and the LIV.

1. Those companies are publicly traded, no one can stop them from buying shares.
2. It is not feasible for every person to look at every single investor of every single company that they use, or look at where every petrol station gets the crude oil from, to suggest it is on in the same is again wilful misrepresentation.
3. The purpose of the PIF investing in those companies it not control or PR it is a way of diversifying their money from oil in a climate where the world is looking to move away from fossil fuels. The LIV tour purpose is sportswashing, it is form of propaganda trying to improve their image in the world

A very good post. Poor old Mel is lost for words

 

[BrianM]

No one is saying that Saudi influence is bad because it comes from oil, that is a wilful misrepresentation of what the issues is.

The issue is the nature of the Saudi government which is totalitarian, has a long history of human rights abuses, and accused of torturing and murdering a US journalist. The money made by oil has partly been put into the PIF, which is one of the largest and most opaque sovereign wealth fund in the world.

The LIV tour, is sportswashing pure and simple, it is not different from the 1936 Belin Olympic the Sochi Winter Games etc

There is a big difference between avoiding firms that have been invested in by PIF and the LIV.

1. Those companies are publicly traded, no one can stop them from buying shares.
2. It is not feasible for every person to look at every single investor of every single company that they use, or look at where every petrol station gets the crude oil from, to suggest it is on in the same is again wilful misrepresentation.
3. The purpose of the PIF investing in those companies it not control or PR it is a way of diversifying their money from oil in a climate where the world is looking to move away from fossil fuels. The LIV tour purpose is sportswashing, it is form of propaganda trying to improve their image in the world

Point 1 - If you believe that the Saudi Government aren't telling PIF what to invest in then your pretty naïve (It's literally the government, they invest on there behalf), we all have a choice where we invest our money and like you say no one can stop you buying shares in these companies, but you have a choice and if it goes against your moral compass you don't need to.

Point 2 - It is feasible if they want it to be and if they really feel that strongly about it they can find out, everything is out there, do you stop watching ladies golf or F1 because of Saudi Aramco's major investment in these sports, do you stop buying products from China because of there child slavery record, do you stop buying Russian vodka because they invaded Ukraine, do you stop eating meat knowing they are getting slaughtered for our consumption (I could go on), my point is we always have a choice no matter what it is, far too easy to dismiss it, it's just whether it goes against your moral compass or can be bothered to find out.

Point 3 - Should they not try and improve their image, have you been out to the Far East to see what it's like, have you worked with Arabs, I've personally worked with them and been going out there for years through work and holidays and I honestly couldn't say a bad word on my own personal experience, it seems like on this thread that every Arab and anyone from Saudi Arabia are the scum of the earth.

Just to be clear I'm not for or against LIV golf, but I'm also not a hypocrite.

 

[howbow88]

It's great that we have a choice. Plenty of people in Saudi Arabia do not - you can't protest against the rulers, you can't be gay unless you would like some 'therapy'.

It's great that you have worked with some nice Saudi blokes, but there are plenty there who live a life of utter misery there because they don't fit the type of person that Saudi Arabia wants.

I mean when most countries want to increase their tourism income, they'll do it by making adverts showing off the nice things to see and do in their country. They don't generally try to buy out several sports teams and systems, and slowly get all of these guys involved to say nice things about Saudi Arabia.

In fairness to Saudi Arabia, they're not the first Arab state to do this. They're just doing it on a much bigger scale.

 

[BrianM]

It's great that we have a choice. Plenty of people in Saudi Arabia do not - you can't protest against the rulers, you can't be gay unless you would like some 'therapy'.

It's great that you have worked with some nice Saudi blokes, but there are plenty there who live a life of utter misery there because they don't fit the type of person that Saudi Arabia wants.

I mean when most countries want to increase their tourism income, they'll do it by making adverts showing off the nice things to see and do in their country. They don't generally try to buy out several sports teams and systems, and slowly get all of these guys involved to say nice things about Saudi Arabia.

In fairness to Saudi Arabia, they're not the first Arab state to do this. They're just doing it on a much bigger scale.

So it's only Saudi Arabia that's like this and the rest of the world is living a harmonious life, why wouldn't they try to improve their image, maybe get yourself across there to make a valid opinion on the points you are trying to make.
I'm pretty sure in every country in the world there will be people living a miserable life because they don't conform with the 'normal'

 

[Mel Smooth]

A very good post. Poor old Mel is lost for words

I was visiting my step daughter in Lincolnshire, so spent the evening driving, and cooking on the bbq for the rest of the chicos and chicas. Didn't really feel inclined to get into a semi-political discussion about Saudi Arabia, but lets address the points.

Plenty of people are complaing about the source of the money - and they are often referring to it as blood money etc. Why is it? It's not generated by killing people, the people that are working for those oil companies aren't doing so in ball and chain, it's pumped out of the ground by multinational companies that I'd omagine renumerate their workers pretty well. So - let's stop calling it blood money shall we? I wont hold my breath.....

I've already said that the Saudis have a moral code and legal system that needs changing, that's unquestionable, but what some people can't seem to grasp, is that just like the gun laws in America (that incidentally lead to waaaaaaay more deaths than the Saudi legal system does), those laws cannot be changed overnight. There's a strong inward pressure from the established legal entities, and some of the people in the country to maintain Shariah Law - I know where I live, where there is a large muslim community - there are reports of shariah law being used within some communities - it is part of the religion of Islam, and as I said in my earlier post, people literally put their faith in Shariah Law. Muslims very much have their faith as centric in their lives, they are living their lives by the way The Prophet Mohammed deemed, I've known loads of muslims who would regularly pray at work, and attending Friday prayer is still very much an important part of their week. I've also seen burials at cemeteries here in West Yorkshire where all the women have to stand outside the cemetery, while the men are allowed in - now to you and me, that might be seen as backward, and a blatant and obvious demonstration of sexual discrimination, but to those muslims, they are simply follwoing what their religion tells them to do.

Of course the Saudi Government is totalitarian, it's the way the country has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Answer me this, do you think the country would be stable and relatively peaceful if Boris Johnson et al were in charge, if they were succumbing to changing laws and legal practices at the whim of a very small minority (which it would be in SA), or do you think their would be internal revolt and an overthrowing of the government by the many terrorist organisations, or even neighbouring countries that border SA? We all know how volatile the middle east is - we in the UK have witnessed a UK government go into several of those countries, with force, and leave behind a complete mess - at significant loss of life to British and U.S Citizens as well..
I'm not defending what the Saudis do, or how they do it, but the truth is it keeps their country relatively safe for the majority.

So are the Saudi's sportswashing? Well I think they are to a degree, but not necessarily to cover up their treatment of people that they have deemed to have broken the laws of their country - because let's face it, that definitely is NOT happening at the moment. The Saudis need to secure their financial future, they are wanting to turn their country into a tourist destination (which incidentally is how they raised quite a lot of their revenue pre-oil), in that regard they need the world to see them as hospitable people - which I'm sure the vast majority are. 12 months ago, I wouldn't have been considering Saudi as a potential destination for a golf holiday - now, well yes, the thought has crossed my mind... and if I was in the market for a trip to that part of the world, then I'd certainly be intrigued as to what the country could offer me in comparison to say Dubai etc.

I'm watching with interest not only how LIV affects golf, but how Saudi Arabia as a country develops as they attempt to shift from oil producer and integrate into global business and tourism.

Khashoggi - there's no defending it based in what we know about his death, and it leaves a very noticeable black cloud over the reign of MBS.

*Note to admins - I appreciate this is a politically heavy post, and if you deem in to be overstepping the boundary of political discussion, please delete.

 

[howbow88]

So it's only Saudi Arabia that's like this and the rest of the world is living a harmonious life, why wouldn't they try to improve their image, maybe get yourself across there to make a valid opinion on the points you are trying to make.
I'm pretty sure in every country in the world there will be people living a miserable life because they don't conform with the 'normal'

'There are other bad countries in the world, so that makes it ok.' Come on.

There are miserable people everywhere because they're 'different' to societal norms, but we're now thankfully evolving into a world where people that are gay are not ostracised, or worst. Not in Saudi Arabia though. There we're talking about 'therapy' or chemical castration for those gay guys that want to live their life in the open.

Here's a nice video about that therapy:

And as for why we're not talking about the other bad countries that do this sort of stuff - they're not trying to run the pro game of golf, and this is a golf forum...

 

[howbow88]

I was visiting my step daughter in Lincolnshire, so spent the evening driving, and cooking on the bbq for the rest of the chicos and chicas. Didn't really feel inclined to get into a semi-political discussion about Saudi Arabia, but lets address the points.

Plenty of people are complaing about the source of the money - and they are often referring to it as blood money etc. Why is it? It's not generated by killing people, the people that are working for those oil companies aren't doing so in ball and chain, it's pumped out of the ground by multinational companies that I'd omagine renumerate their workers pretty well. So - let's stop calling it blood money shall we? I wont hold my breath.....

I've already said that the Saudis have a moral code and legal system that needs changing, that's unquestionable, but what some people can't seem to grasp, is that just like the gun laws in America (that incidentally lead to waaaaaaay more deaths than the Saudi legal system does), those laws cannot be changed overnight. There's a strong inward pressure from the established legal entities, and some of the people in the country to maintain Shariah Law - I know where I live, where there is a large muslim community - there are reports of shariah law being used within some communities - it is part of the religion of Islam, and as I said in my earlier post, people literally put their faith in Shariah Law. Muslims very much have their faith as centric in their lives, they are living their lives by the way The Prophet Mohammed deemed, I've known loads of muslims who would regularly pray at work, and attending Friday prayer is still very much an important part of their week. I've also seen burials at cemeteries here in West Yorkshire where all the women have to stand outside the cemetery, while the men are allowed in - now to you and me, that might be seen as backward, and a blatant and obvious demonstration of sexual discrimination, but to those muslims, they are simply follwoing what their religion tells them to do.

Of course the Saudi Government is totalitarian, it's the way the country has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Answer me this, do you think the country would be stable and relatively peaceful if Boris Johnson et al were in charge, if they were succumbing to changing laws and legal practices at the whim of a very small minority (which it would be in SA), or do you think their would be internal revolt and an overthrowing of the government by the many terrorist organisations, or even neighbouring countries that border SA? We all know how volatile the middle east is - we in the UK have witnessed a UK government go into several of those countries, with force, and leave behind a complete mess - at significant loss of life to British and U.S Citizens as well..
I'm not defending what the Saudis do, or how they do it, but the truth is it keeps their country relatively safe for the majority.

So are the Saudi's sportswashing? Well I think they are to a degree, but not necessarily to cover up their treatment of people that they have deemed to have broken the laws of their country - because let's face it, that definitely is NOT happening at the moment. The Saudis need to secure their financial future, they are wanting to turn their country into a tourist destination (which incidentally is how they raised quite a lot of their revenue pre-oil), in that regard they need the world to see them as hospitable people - which I'm sure the vast majority are. 12 months ago, I wouldn't have been considering Saudi as a potential destination for a golf holiday - now, well yes, the thought has crossed my mind... and if I was in the market for a trip to that part of the world, then I'd certainly be intrigued as to what the country could offer me in comparison to say Dubai etc.

I'm watching with interest not only how LIV affects golf, but how Saudi Arabia as a country develops as they attempt to shift from oil producer and integrate into global business and tourism.

Khashoggi - there's no defending it based in what we know about his death, and it leaves a very noticeable black cloud over the reign of MBS.

*Note to admins - I appreciate this is a politically heavy post, and if you deem in to be overstepping the boundary of political discussion, please delete.

Fair play to you for responding. I do find it odd that you seem to accept that they're sportswashing but you defend it anyway. As for Boris Johnson running the place - he had a go at running his own country and royally screwed that up.

I think the issue is that they're trying to make our that they're trying to change their ways and if you look into it, it is fairly clear that they aren't.

As for Saudi Golf/LIV itself - I listened to the NLU podcast the other day and one of the guys said 'the best thing that they could possibly do right now is get rid of Norman.' I couldn't agree more. Imagine that they managed to get someone generally likeable, shrewd, and thoughtful as the front man. Someone like an Arnold Palmer or Seve type character.

Instead of that they have a Trump like character, spouting childish stuff on social media and acting emotionally instead of professionaly. He sort of seems like Vince McMahon (who in fairness, was clearly playing a very hammy caricature of himself) in late nineties WWF. And then having Mickelson as one of the key figures in the whole thing, also spouting nonsense whenever he gets the chance, doesn't really help.

I actually find Norman a fascinating character and he was clearly an incredibly gifted player. But him running the thing as he is doing right now just seems so divisive. I can't actually believe that the Saudi guys behind all this really want him as the figurehead.