LIV Golf

[Deleted member 21445]

I think everyone is getting used to the idea that Cameron Smith is going to/signed for Liv.

The PGA Tour must be praying he doesn't win the Fed Ex and go to world number one.

Liv, s media machine is very slick and they will go to town on
- The World No1
- The Open Champion
- The PGA Fed Ex Champion

Leaving the PGA Tour to play on the Liv Tour.
World No2 and Open Champ will already be quite the coup for Greg Norman.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.

Once again, I really like the idea that people should die rather than take Pfizer drugs, or people needing to travel to work to feed their kids is somehow no different to multi millionaires accepting more millions from Saudi.

One is a necessity, the other isn't. And no, I don't happen to do any of the other things on your list.

 

[Hoganman1]

I understand all the discussion about the Saudis and their record on human rights. While that's an issue it's not my main complaint. For me fifty four hole events with shotgun starts where there is no cut and everybody gets paid (in advance) are exhibitions. Events like these have been around for ages. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagan even Nicklaus, Palmer and Tiger played exhibitions. Tiger has referred to them as "hit and giggle" golf and he's right. They're fine, but I rarely watch them. I prefer seeing the best players battling each other for trophies and titles. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster while most true golf fans will never forget who won at St. Andrews last month. Golf like tennis is an individual sport where one has to win or at least play very well to get paid. Also, to become famous as well as wealthy one has to win majors. I hope that doesn't change anytime soon.

 

[BrianM]

'There are other bad countries in the world, so that makes it ok.' Come on.

There are miserable people everywhere because they're 'different' to societal norms, but we're now thankfully evolving into a world where people that are gay are not ostracised, or worst. Not in Saudi Arabia though. There we're talking about 'therapy' or chemical castration for those gay guys that want to live their life in the open.

Here's a nice video about that therapy:

And as for why we're not talking about the other bad countries that do this sort of stuff - they're not trying to run the pro game of golf, and this is a golf forum...

No one said it was ok, certainly not me, The Saudi Arabian government have a long way to go to clean up their image, but you are basically tarring a whole nation when you've probably never been there in your life, we can all do the social media thing and find what we want to find, good or bad.

 

[BubbaP]

I understand all the discussion about the Saudis and their record on human rights. While that's an issue it's not my main complaint. For me fifty four hole events with shotgun starts where there is no cut and everybody gets paid (in advance) are exhibitions. Events like these have been around for ages. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagan even Nicklaus, Palmer and Tiger played exhibitions. Tiger has referred to them as "hit and giggle" golf and he's right. They're fine, but I rarely watch them. I prefer seeing the best players battling each other for trophies and titles. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster while most true golf fans will never forget who won at St. Andrews last month. Golf like tennis is an individual sport where one has to win or at least play very well to get paid. Also, to become famous as well as wealthy one has to win majors. I hope that doesn't change anytime soon.

Some fair points. We don't know the future but right now perhaps your question could have been "but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster verses who won the John Deere Classic".
Like you I hope the traditional majors remain relevant. There is an argument that the PGAT with the rewards of the Players & the Fed Ex have been chipping away at them for a while.

 

[howbow88]

No one said it was ok, certainly not me, The Saudi Arabian government have a long way to go to clean up their image, but you are basically tarring a whole nation when you've probably never been there in your life, we can all do the social media thing and find what we want to find, good or bad.

I'm not tarring the average people of Saudi Arabia as bad guys at all. But the rulers? Yes, they are bad guys and I don't like that they are looking to become heavily involved in running the pro game of golf.

 

[RRidges]

I was visiting my step daughter in Lincolnshire, so spent the evening driving, and cooking on the bbq for the rest of the chicos and chicas. Didn't really feel inclined to get into a semi-political discussion about Saudi Arabia, but lets address the points.

Plenty of people are complaing about the source of the money - and they are often referring to it as blood money etc. Why is it? It's not generated by killing people, the people that are working for those oil companies aren't doing so in ball and chain, it's pumped out of the ground by multinational companies that I'd omagine renumerate their workers pretty well. So - let's stop calling it blood money shall we? I wont hold my breath.....

I've already said that the Saudis have a moral code and legal system that needs changing, that's unquestionable, but what some people can't seem to grasp, is that just like the gun laws in America (that incidentally lead to waaaaaaay more deaths than the Saudi legal system does), those laws cannot be changed overnight. There's a strong inward pressure from the established legal entities, and some of the people in the country to maintain Shariah Law - I know where I live, where there is a large muslim community - there are reports of shariah law being used within some communities - it is part of the religion of Islam, and as I said in my earlier post, people literally put their faith in Shariah Law. Muslims very much have their faith as centric in their lives, they are living their lives by the way The Prophet Mohammed deemed, I've known loads of muslims who would regularly pray at work, and attending Friday prayer is still very much an important part of their week. I've also seen burials at cemeteries here in West Yorkshire where all the women have to stand outside the cemetery, while the men are allowed in - now to you and me, that might be seen as backward, and a blatant and obvious demonstration of sexual discrimination, but to those muslims, they are simply follwoing what their religion tells them to do.

Of course the Saudi Government is totalitarian, it's the way the country has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Answer me this, do you think the country would be stable and relatively peaceful if Boris Johnson et al were in charge, if they were succumbing to changing laws and legal practices at the whim of a very small minority (which it would be in SA), or do you think their would be internal revolt and an overthrowing of the government by the many terrorist organisations, or even neighbouring countries that border SA? We all know how volatile the middle east is - we in the UK have witnessed a UK government go into several of those countries, with force, and leave behind a complete mess - at significant loss of life to British and U.S Citizens as well..
I'm not defending what the Saudis do, or how they do it, but the truth is it keeps their country relatively safe for the majority.

So are the Saudi's sportswashing? Well I think they are to a degree, but not necessarily to cover up their treatment of people that they have deemed to have broken the laws of their country - because let's face it, that definitely is NOT happening at the moment. The Saudis need to secure their financial future, they are wanting to turn their country into a tourist destination (which incidentally is how they raised quite a lot of their revenue pre-oil), in that regard they need the world to see them as hospitable people - which I'm sure the vast majority are. 12 months ago, I wouldn't have been considering Saudi as a potential destination for a golf holiday - now, well yes, the thought has crossed my mind... and if I was in the market for a trip to that part of the world, then I'd certainly be intrigued as to what the country could offer me in comparison to say Dubai etc.

I'm watching with interest not only how LIV affects golf, but how Saudi Arabia as a country develops as they attempt to shift from oil producer and integrate into global business and tourism.

Khashoggi - there's no defending it based in what we know about his death, and it leaves a very noticeable black cloud over the reign of MBS.

*Note to admins - I appreciate this is a politically heavy post, and if you deem in to be overstepping the boundary of political discussion, please delete.

A fine load of waffle that only brushes on the fundamental issue - blatant sportswashing!
The Khashoggi incident you mention simply demonstrates what the regime is really like, why they are unlikely to change in the near future and why they need to sportswash!

 

[BrianM]

I'm not tarring the average people of Saudi Arabia as bad guys at all. But the rulers? Yes, they are bad guys and I don't like that they are looking to become heavily involved in running the pro game of golf.

That's fair enough, one thing from my own experience is they are very heavy into their religion (Not for getting onto in here) and I believe that there religion forbids gay relationships, it's something that definitely needs addressed but the 'normal' people will probably be very much against it as well.

 

[RRidges]

I understand all the discussion about the Saudis and their record on human rights. While that's an issue it's not my main complaint. For me fifty four hole events with shotgun starts where there is no cut and everybody gets paid (in advance) are exhibitions. Events like these have been around for ages. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagan even Nicklaus, Palmer and Tiger played exhibitions. Tiger has referred to them as "hit and giggle" golf and he's right. They're fine, but I rarely watch them. I prefer seeing the best players battling each other for trophies and titles. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster while most true golf fans will never forget who won at St. Andrews last month. Golf like tennis is an individual sport where one has to win or at least play very well to get paid. Also, to become famous as well as wealthy one has to win majors. I hope that doesn't change anytime soon.

Indeed! Watching the 2nd round of FedEx St Jude last night demonstrated the difference between the LIV circus and PGA Tour style tournaments!

 

[Hoganman1]

Some fair points. We don't know the future but right now perhaps your question could have been "but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster verses who won the John Deere Classic".
Like you I hope the traditional majors remain relevant. There is an argument that the PGAT with the rewards of the Players & the Fed Ex have been chipping away at them for a while.

You're right. However, I do usually watch The John Deere because sometimes the winner is not already qualified and a win gets the player in The Open. Also, The Players has gained status where now it appears winning two Players equals one major to qualify for the Golf Hall of Fame. As for the FedEx Cup it lost some significance for me when they started that deal where the point leader tees off in Atlanta already ten under par. Of course, I'll watch because I once played East Lake and really like that course.
I guess we'll see where all this goes. In the meantime I hate that Cam Smith is apparently going to LIV. So far, he's the only player I'll really miss.

 

[RRidges]

Some fair points. We don't know the future but right now perhaps your question could have been "but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster verses who won the John Deere Classic".
Like you I hope the traditional majors remain relevant. There is an argument that the PGAT with the rewards of the Players & the Fed Ex have been chipping away at them for a while.

On the contrary, I'll remember the winners of both the 1st LIV event - because it was the 1st - and of Bedminster - because it was Stenson and his 1st event. I can't remember who won Pumpkin Ridge though, nor who won The John Deere as, for me, it was 'just another PGA Tour event'.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

A large proportion of the PGA events are forgettable affairs but their marquee events are awesome because the courses are great and the history but it's mainly because of the quality of field the likes of the AT&T, Memorial, Arnold Palmer Invitational, The Players etc attract.

That's why holding onto the best players is so important to the PGA Tour.

If there ever became a time that there is a much larger proportion of the worlds best Golfers on another tour those events then lose some/a lot of their sheen and sponsorship revenue drops.

In the same way that Liv is currently criticised for having the weaker field resulting in a weaker event, the same would apply the other way round if that ever happened and Liv's events like for example played at Turnberry with a stellar field of the worlds best players well then their event becomes much more high profile.

I've said this so many times, Greg Norman and Jay Monaghon will not decide the destiny of these tours, the players will by which tour has the higher percentage of the best players on show..

It looks like the Liv Tour is going to announce a stronger field for 2023 but the PGA will still hold the balance strongly in their favour but they have to stop this trickle of players leaving otherwise the trickle becomes a flow which then becomes a rapid..

 

[BubbaP]

Indeed! Watching the 2nd round of FedEx St Jude last night demonstrated the difference between the LIV circus and PGA Tour style tournaments!

Glad you enjoyed it, I confess that I struggled with it, maybe I switched on at the wrong time. Hopefully the weekend will be better for me.
A fair few "big names" did miss the cut though - perhaps they "phoned it in" knowing they have a guaranteed big payday next week ???

 

[BubbaP]

A large proportion of the PGA events are forgettable affairs but their marquee events are awesome because the courses are great and the history but it's mainly because of the quality of field the likes of the AT&T, Memorial, Arnold Palmer Invitational, The Players etc attract.

That's why holding onto the best players is so important to the PGA Tour.

If there ever became a time that there is a much larger proportion of the worlds best Golfers on another tour those events then lose some/a lot of their sheen and sponsorship revenue drops.

In the same way that Liv is currently criticised for having the weaker field resulting in a weaker event, the same would apply the other way round if that ever happened and Liv's events like for example played at Turnberry with a stellar field of the worlds best players well then their event becomes much more high profile.

I've said this so many times, Greg Norman and Jay Monaghon will not decide the destiny of these tours, the players will by which tour has the higher percentage of the best players on show..

It looks like the Liv Tour is going to announce a stronger field for 2023 but the PGA will still hold the balance strongly in their favour but they have to stop this trickle of players leaving otherwise the trickle becomes a flow which then becomes a rapid..

Unless/until the messaging changes about 48 players then I suspect the best they may hope for is close to half of the 'top 100'. Should that happen whether the remaining is enough to give the tv companies & sponsors (PGAT) remains to be seen. I believe since Centurion each PGAT event has been a little down on strength of field rating and points for the winner compared to previous years, but not significantly so.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Unless/until the messaging changes about 48 players then I suspect the best they may hope for is close to half of the 'top 100'. Should that happen whether the remaining is enough to give the tv companies & sponsors (PGAT) remains to be seen. I believe since Centurion each PGAT event has been a little down on strength of field rating and points for the winner compared to previous years, but not significantly so.

The trouble for the PGA Tour is that with every major signing the Liv Tour is perceived to be getting slightly stronger and the PGA Tour is perceived to be getting slightly weaker.

It's a narrative that is hard to combat if players continue to switch across.

 

[Backsticks]

The trouble for the PGA Tour is that with every major signing the Liv Tour is perceived to be getting slightly stronger and the PGA Tour is perceived to be getting slightly weaker.

It's a narrative that is hard to combat if players continue to switch across.

And 'narrative' suggests its only spin. But it is a reality. Smith is undoubtedly a big loss. At some point there will be two weak tours with a portion of the worlds best golfers. And one of them will also have a champions or past real competitiveness cohort for those who like a bit of nostalgia mixed in. So everyone is a loser. Its usually the case in civil wars.

I am fully OK with sportswashing, and the barbaric regime behind its funding, if it added something to the entertainment value of elite pro golf. But a half tour, and an exhibition tour, is not better in any way whatsoever, than what the PGAT presents today. Saudi is bad bad bad, for golf as entertainment.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558513610653155328

? ?

 

[RRidges]

Glad you enjoyed it, I confess that I struggled with it, maybe I switched on at the wrong time. Hopefully the weekend will be better for me.
A fair few "big names" did miss the cut though - perhaps they "phoned it in" knowing they have a guaranteed big payday next week ???

Timing was everything. Was interesting to watch Rory's efforts, in vain, and those of some further down the pecking order. Certainly more interesting than watching the 'who care's I'm guaranteed loads anyway' circus from a couple of weeks ago!

 

[sunshine]

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.

And the plural of company is “companys” or “company’s” or something else?

This paragraph reads like it was written by someone in a data centre in a third world country. The digital equivalent of a sweat shop.

 

[RRidges]

I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.

Just because SA invests money in certain companies doesn't make them bad companies - though total ownership, like Newcastle Untd is a different story, and more like the sportswashing of LIV!