Lift and Place all year round.

[Slab]

A bit off topic but I'm looking at the R&A website at local rules and wondering if someone can provide a link to any guidance for committees for when they may/should use rules like MLR E2 & E3 regarding frequency, duration etc

I working on a maybe false assumption that a club shouldn't use MLR E2 and leave it in place on a permanent basis?

 

[Deleted member 30522]

A bit off topic but I'm looking at the R&A website at local rules and wondering if someone can provide a link to any guidance for committees for when they may/should use rules like MLR E2 & E3 regarding frequency, duration etc

I working on a maybe false assumption that a club shouldn't use MLR E2 and leave it in place on a permanent basis?

No it can't, this from England Golf (Scottish Golf have no online guidance)

 

[Slab]

No it can't, this from England Golf (Scottish Golf have no online guidance)

View attachment 49857

Thanks for this, that'll certainly cover E3 in a territory (I wonder if EG have any such instruction for E2?)

Anyone know if there's similar covering the whole R&A governance area for E2 Cleaning Ball? (Lift Clean and Replace)

 

[Orikoru]

For those of you who have poo-pooed this, claiming that bad breaks are just part of golf etc - I presume you'd be in favour of scrapping preferred lies completely then in that case?

I've not seen a single good reason against it yet. Just typical old golfer comments that it's not traditional and not how it's done, effectively.

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks for this, that'll certainly cover E3 in a territory (I wonder if EG have any such instruction for E2?)

Anyone know if there's similar covering the whole R&A governance area for E2 Cleaning Ball? (Lift Clean and Replace)

Committee procedures Rule 3 The Committee is responsible for deciding whether to adopt any Local Rules and for making sure they are consistent with the principles found in Section 8.

Model LRs 8. h If a Local Rule is introduced because of a temporary situation, it should be removed as soon as the situation no longer requires the use of the Local Rule.

E2 is only allowable when the situation needs it and should only be brought in for specific areas and not an entire course. It should only be be brought in when necessary and removed as soon as it is no longer needed.

I would suggest reading the rule in full particularly the preamble.

 

[jim8flog]

For those of you who have poo-pooed this, claiming that bad breaks are just part of golf etc - I presume you'd be in favour of scrapping preferred lies completely then in that case?

No the Lift,clean and place rule is not just about the lie it is also the condition of the ball eg mud and or wet grass adhering to the ball.

 

[Slab]

Committee procedures Rule 3 The Committee is responsible for deciding whether to adopt any Local Rules and for making sure they are consistent with the principles found in Section 8.

Model LRs 8. h If a Local Rule is introduced because of a temporary situation, it should be removed as soon as the situation no longer requires the use of the Local Rule.

E2 is only allowable when the situation needs it and should only be brought in for specific areas and not an entire course. It should only be be brought in when necessary and removed as soon as it is no longer needed.

I would suggest reading the rule in full particularly the preamble.

Thanks for that Yeah there's more detail there than is listed on the LR 'creator' page of the R&A site I ended up on after a google search https://www.randa.org/local-rules-creator

 

[Orikoru]

No the Lift,clean and place rule is not just about the lie it is also the condition of the ball eg mud and or wet grass adhering to the ball.

We live in the UK, you could literally get that at any time of year. Especially this year when July and August were miserable.

 

[jim8flog]

We live in the UK, you could literally get that at any time of year. Especially this year when July and August were miserable.

and in the same respect I have gone through winters where lift clean, and place is not needed.

 

[Orikoru]

and in the same respect I have gone through winters where lift clean, and place is not needed.

So you agree that the rule should doesn't need to be season-dependant then? Either have it all the time or not at all.

 

[RichA]

So you agree that the rule should doesn't need to be season-dependant then? Either have it all the time or not at all.

Probably wrong, but I was under the impression that a club can seek permission from their county at any time of year, if the conditions necessitate it. It just happens that in the UK there's a blanket option to use preferred lies from October through March.
Even in winter, I only bother if the ball is sitting in or covered in mud. Pick, wipe, place is pretty tedious if it's used on every shot.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

For those of you who have poo-pooed this, claiming that bad breaks are just part of golf etc - I presume you'd be in favour of scrapping preferred lies completely then in that case?

I've not seen a single good reason against it yet. Just typical old golfer comments that it's not traditional and not how it's done, effectively.

Where do you draw the line? Should a shot that bounces on the fairway and hits something and deflects into the rough be placed back on the fairway?

Part of the skill of golf is assessing a lie and hitting an appropriate shot.

I’ve played courses where there is significant grain on the fairways and depending on which half you hit, it could be hurting or helping. Not to mention landing into the grain could reduce the distance your ball rolls out. Should we be able to move the ball to the nicer side?

Personally I would remove preferred lies. Golf is not supposed to be easy or fair.

There is always simulator golf people need perfect lies ever shot.

 

[Orikoru]

Where do you draw the line? Should a shot that bounces on the fairway and hits something and deflects into the rough be placed back on the fairway?

Part of the skill of golf is assessing a lie and hitting an appropriate shot.

I’ve played courses where there is significant grain on the fairways and depending on which half you hit, it could be hurting or helping. Not to mention landing into the grain could reduce the distance your ball rolls out. Should we be able to move the ball to the nicer side?

Personally I would remove preferred lies. Golf is not supposed to be easy or fair.

There is always simulator golf people need perfect lies ever shot.

More nonsense whataboutery. I don't know why that's always the first go-to in these discussions. I'd draw the line at pick and place on the fairway, since that's exactly what we're talking about.

Second part - that's actually what I'm coming around to, if not what the OP is saying. It doesn't make a huge amount of sense to have an arbitrary cut-off date for preferred lies. You get a mudball on the 1st October and it's no problem, a day earlier and you're stuck with it. Either make preferred lies a permanent rule (amateur game only of course), or scrap it altogether.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

More nonsense whataboutery. I don't know why that's always the first go-to in these discussions. I'd draw the line at pick and place on the fairway, since that's exactly what we're talking about.

Second part - that's actually what I'm coming around to, if not what the OP is saying. It doesn't make a huge amount of sense to have an arbitrary cut-off date for preferred lies. You get a mudball on the 1st October and it's no problem, a day earlier and you're stuck with it. Either make preferred lies a permanent rule (amateur game only of course), or scrap it altogether.

It’s not though, it’s the thin end of the wedge. Changing the rule would be just the start. Then why not tee it up on the fairway, move your ball to avoid a blemish on the green.

It’s bad enough people wanting free drops from the middle of a bush because there are rabbit droppings within 100yards.

Personally, I would be happy for players to not be allowed to touch the ball between the tee and the green unless under penalty or plugged outside of a penalty area.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one

 

[Orikoru]

It’s not though, it’s the thin end of the wedge. Changing the rule would be just the start. Then why not tee it up on the fairway, move your ball to avoid a blemish on the green.

It’s bad enough people wanting free drops from the middle of a bush because there are rabbit droppings within 100yards.

Personally, I would be happy for players to not be allowed to touch the ball between the tee and the green unless under penalty or plugged outside of a penalty area.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one

This literally is whataboutery. We get it in every single debate ever. It's like when we talk about relaxing dress codes - 'but what about when someone turns up topless in hotpants??' It's all nonsense. How the hell is expanding a rule that already exists the same as teeing up on the fairway?

I don't really care about this to be honest with you - even if OP got 10,000 signatures they still won't change the rule so it's a moot point. I just wanted to hear one proper argument against it other than whataboutery or the standard "it's not traditional!" I still haven't heard one.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

For those of you who have poo-pooed this, claiming that bad breaks are just part of golf etc - I presume you'd be in favour of scrapping preferred lies completely then in that case?

Yes, absolutely. I fought against having preferred lies at all and only this year have we brought in the local rule for April (we have no comps outside Apr-Sep), and I'm still against it. Sure as night follows day, the ladies h'cap sec wanted the period extended into May and had to have it explained slowly that she needs to gen up a bit on the rules

 

[RichA]

This literally is whataboutery. We get it in every single debate ever. It's like when we talk about relaxing dress codes - 'but what about when someone turns up topless in hotpants??' It's all nonsense. How the hell is expanding a rule that already exists the same as teeing up on the fairway?

I don't really care about this to be honest with you - even if OP got 10,000 signatures they still won't change the rule so it's a moot point. I just wanted to hear one proper argument against it other than whataboutery or the standard "it's not traditional!" I still haven't heard one.

I don't think it's just about tradition. One of the key elements of the sport is playing the ball as it lies. Preferred lies just takes away clear disadvantages brought about by bad weather.
And it's only for comps and handicap qualifying golf. You can do what you like in social golf.

 

[Orikoru]

I don't think it's just about tradition. One of the key elements of the sport is playing the ball as it lies. Preferred lies just takes away clear disadvantages brought about by bad weather.
And it's only for comps and handicap qualifying golf. You can do what you like in social golf.

To that end, it would make more sense for preferred lies to be an optional local rule that the club chooses to put in place if conditions allow it. Rather than just a blanket rule from October to April whether you need it or not - and if conditions are terrible on May 1st, tough luck.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

To that end, it would make more sense for preferred lies to be an optional local rule that the club chooses to put in place if conditions allow it. Rather than just a blanket rule from October to April whether you need it or not - and if conditions are terrible on May 1st, tough luck.

If you don't need it you don't implement though.

 

[Orikoru]

If you don't need it you don't implement though.

Vast majority of places do don't they?