Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Colin L]

You have a knack of misrepresenting the words.

Priceless.

 

[Neilds]

We all assume/hope that until we experience the reality. The rule makers would like us all to behave impeccably but, I'm sorry to have to tell you, there are golfers who don't. The rules used to make it more difficult to get away with things but no longer.

Good luck.

I will ask you again, have you reported these golfers?

 

[Thintowin]

I will ask you again, have you reported these golfers?

No, not one of them. If that makes me a cheat then there's many more like me.

I would avoid them and if I had to play one in a match I'd keep a careful eye on them. I've seen it all the way up from too much downward pressure behind the ball in the rough, improving lie, dropping an identical ball, declaring a ball was theirs only to change their mind when I find another ball. Then there's the dodgy pencil brigade. You play this game enough and you'll see that and probably more. People can't be trusted. If the game's rules are too lax then we have no game at all.

 

[KenL]

No, not one of them. If that makes me a cheat then there's many more like me.

I would avoid them and if I had to play one in a match I'd keep a careful eye on them. I've seen it all the way up from too much downward pressure behind the ball in the rough, improving lie, dropping an identical ball, declaring a ball was theirs only to change their mind when I find another ball. Then there's the dodgy pencil brigade. You play this game enough and you'll see that and probably more. People can't be trusted. If the game's rules are too lax then we have no game at all.

Nice to see you moving away from whs issues.

 

[Thintowin]

I will ask you again, have you reported these golfers?

Actually I have reported twice. Once for a group playing off the wrong tees and once for my opponent having a nonconforming driver. Neither episode worked out well for anyone, including me.

 

[Thintowin]

Nice to see you moving away from whs issues.

Not sure I see your logic. Handicapping rules are now such that it's easier to cheat and if I suspect someone is playing the system by not trying when their round has gone to pot I'm sure not going to report them. Who does?

 

[rulie]

Rules do not apply themselves. Golfers apply the Rules, to themselves and through reporting others’ questionable behaviour to the Committees responsible.

 

[hambugerpete]

We all assume/hope that until we experience the reality. The rule makers would like us all to behave impeccably but, I'm sorry to have to tell you, there are golfers who don't. The rules used to make it more difficult to get away with things but no longer.

Good luck.

People who cheat now probably always have. I doubt the rule changes encouraged new cheats.

 

[Thintowin]

People who cheat now probably always have. I doubt the rule changes encouraged new cheats.

Probably not but now I can't keep an eye on someone improving their lie in the rough. Previously if I saw them reaching for their ball I'd know what was happening. Now they can claim they'd marked it to identify it. I don't get called over to witness anymore.

 

[hambugerpete]

Probably not but now I can't keep an eye on someone improving their lie in the rough. Previously if I saw them reaching for their ball I'd know what was happening. Now they can claim they'd marked it to identify it. I don't get called over to witness anymore.

There are so many opportunities to cheat, it's a game of trust and thats all we can do.

 

[Thintowin]

There are so many opportunities to cheat, it's a game of trust and thats all we can do.

We can make rules that make cheating more difficult. We used to have one for this particular example. Previously you had to call your opponent over to witness you identifying your ball. This ensured you put it back exactly where it has been.

Commonsense rule, gone!

 

[Thintowin]

Rules do not apply themselves. Golfers apply the Rules, to themselves and through reporting others’ questionable behaviour to the Committees responsible.

Would you report a guy who lands in a green side bunker on every one of his last 6 holes? Was he cheating by trying to shoot a bigger number than he would normally after blowing his competitive chance after a double on 12?

 

[Neilds]

Actually I have reported twice. Once for a group playing off the wrong tees and once for my opponent having a nonconforming driver. Neither episode worked out well for anyone, including me.

So nothing to do with WHS

 

[Thintowin]

So nothing to do with WHS

Too easy to cheat with WHS. Too easy to argue you weren't cheating. Rules are too lax. So no.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Would you report a guy who lands in a green side bunker on every one of his last 6 holes? Was he cheating by trying to shoot a bigger number than he would normally after blowing his competitive chance after a double on 12?

And nothing to do with WHS. Just personal integrity.

Have you got any further information on the link between handicap golf competitions and mental health / wellbeing?

 

[doublebogey7]

I dont think that is the case. Yes the barrier to entry to cheating is now lower, and there is some more of it, and it requires more work and cleaning up by committees, but I dont think it is dramatically spoiling the handicap world.
Some percieved cheating is probably coming from the push for GP scores. Those putting in GP score will naturally, even without any deliberate or premeditated cheating scheme, have higher handicaps than those putting in competition cards for their handicaps. Giving them an advantage when they do play in a competition against pur comp Index players. Easily misinterpreted as cheating. Comp and GP cards is trying to compare apples and oranges. In the US, they have the counterbalancing effect of Mulligans, gimmees, and not counting the odd lost ball. But that culture is still frowned on here, coming from our background of puritan competition scores determining your handicap. EG is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole on this. Its why it is failing.

Sorry more assumptions without any back up evidence. I on the other hand can show that this is not the case but actually the opposite. GP scores submittd at my club are 14% on average lower than Competition scores, so actaully the average handicap of our memebers is lower than it would have been if such scores were not allowed.

 

[Colin L]

Probably not but now I can't keep an eye on someone improving their lie in the rough. Previously if I saw them reaching for their ball I'd know what was happening. Now they can claim they'd marked it to identify it. I don't get called over to witness anymore.

A player is not required to call anyone to be witness to his lifting his ball to take any kind of relief or to the procedure he then follows. What is special about identifying his ball that should require the action to be witnessed?

 

[Thintowin]

A player is not required to call anyone to be witness to his lifting his ball to take any kind of relief or to the procedure he then follows. What is special about identifying his ball that should require the action to be witnessed?

That was a rule that changed in recent years. I thought, given your refereeing experience, you'd be aware of that.

Even so, you clearly don't follow my point about it being an opportunity to cheat now by improving your lie in the rough. Seriously, referee?

 

[AussieKB]

Again I have some sympathy with some of the points you make however I do totally disagree with you final point. At most clubs that I talk to, as well as my own, there has been no drop off at all in the number or participation rate in competitions. There is no groundswell at all that I have heard of to move away from WHS or return to UHS.

In OZ the Opens have had a huge drop off.....one example is that there was a waiting list to get in every year for 20 years, now you can turn up on the day and get a start, and it is not isolated, people are sick of 45 points or better winning.

 

[AussieKB]

I know I'm getting old but I cannot remember ever, the phrase 'I have a good score dropping off today'

A phrase I hear all the time now, have even used it myself.