Handicap manipulation - how to address

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You have a knack of misrepresenting the words.

Would be nice if everyone self regulated, as in called themselves out.

Golfers as a whole…as a collective..should, and in my experience do, self-regulate. Yes individuals of course should also..but others should ‘help’ them as and when necessary.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I know I'm getting old but I cannot remember ever, the phrase 'I have a good score dropping off today'

A phrase I hear all the time now, have even used it myself.

You did here a lot of "at least I'm getting point 1 back" , The "I have a good score dropping of today" is just the new phrase in town

 

[AussieKB]

Out here, we put so many cards a year in from competitions that our handicaps get turned over at least twice a year, for me with a 150 cards that 7 and 1/2 times.

 

[Colin L]

That was a rule that changed in recent years. I thought, given your refereeing experience, you'd be aware of that.

Even so, you clearly don't follow my point about it being an opportunity to cheat now by improving your lie in the rough. Seriously, referee?

You have misunderstood my question. I don't think it was unclear but in case it was, let me explain it.

You complained that the rules are becoming too lax and cite the change to the requirement to inform another player when you were going to lift a ball to identify it. That is because you see that requirement as having been an opportunity to ensure the other player didn't place his ball in a better lie. I was asking what you saw as being so different between identifying a ball and other situations where a ball in play can legitimately be lifted without involving another player that you think that the rule should not have been changed, a change which aligned that rlule with the others. There are many situations in which a player can legitimately lift their ball in play without your supervision and a multitude of other ways in which a player can cheat. Players are not put in the position of refereeing each other's play and no player has to justify their actions to other players. Adherence to the Rules is down to the integrity of the individual and cheating is a sign of a dishonest player, not the "system".

By the way, you thought that with my refereeing experience I would have been aware of the rule change. Spot on. I was.

 

[bobmac]

So basically, one side is saying we have data which proves WHS is an improvement on what came before.
But the other says they have real world experience that suggests it's not.
And never the twain shall meet.

 

[Neilds]

No, not one of them. If that makes me a cheat then there's many more like me.

I would avoid them and if I had to play one in a match I'd keep a careful eye on them. I've seen it all the way up from too much downward pressure behind the ball in the rough, improving lie, dropping an identical ball, declaring a ball was theirs only to change their mind when I find another ball. Then there's the dodgy pencil brigade. You play this game enough and you'll see that and probably more. People can't be trusted. If the game's rules are too lax then we have no game at all.

Makes me wonder why you bother playing at all if you are so paranoid about other players!

 

[Voyager EMH]

No, not one of them. If that makes me a cheat then there's many more like me.

I would avoid them and if I had to play one in a match I'd keep a careful eye on them. I've seen it all the way up from too much downward pressure behind the ball in the rough, improving lie, dropping an identical ball, declaring a ball was theirs only to change their mind when I find another ball. Then there's the dodgy pencil brigade. You play this game enough and you'll see that and probably more. People can't be trusted. If the game's rules are too lax then we have no game at all.

That's one that bugs me. Doesn't have to be in the rough either.
Club must be grounded "lightly". But clearly, many players have differing views regarding exactly what "lightly" means.

I've seen wedge shots from poor lies on the fairway where the pre-shot routine is,
waggle clubhead above ball, tap down
waggle clubhead above ball, tap down
waggle clubhead above ball, tap down
Those 3 taps are not grounding the club lightly to me.
But is this cheating or merely an infringement due to lack of knowledge of the rules? I wonder what view P. Reed would take.

 

[Dunesman]

Given that this is now the all-things-WHS, would those defending the accuracy of its handicaps and that there is no issue at club competituon level, nevertheless agree that in its fundamental aim of a single global system, WHS is a spectacular failure ?

Whatever about clubs doing their own thing, thats quite a few local 'variations' being implemented, suggesting everyone is looking for sticking plasters for the WHS problems : GP cards not as valuable as competition cards for EG ; 0.95% for single is too high for Aus Golf ; indexes not trustworthy enough for club representation eligibility in Ireland, some GP cards not acceptable in Mauritius. Scotland was doing its own thing on rounding, but has it now joined England ? And thats just from various contributors here. It certainly makes a mockery of the claim that we needed WHS so we would have one worldwide system. And worse, given such regional fixes, it confirms that WHS is inherently flawed, and that not just individual golfers, but regional associations do not trust it.

 

[backwoodsman]

I just wonder if this thread should be closed. It hasn't gone anywhere in the last 750 posts and some folk seem intent on making sure it doesn’t in the next 750.

I used to enjoy the rules forum

 

[Thintowin]

Given that this is now the all-things-WHS, would those defending the accuracy of its handicaps and that there is no issue at club competituon level, nevertheless agree that in its fundamental aim of a single global system, WHS is a spectacular failure ?

Whatever about clubs doing their own thing, thats quite a few local 'variations' being implemented, suggesting everyone is looking for sticking plasters for the WHS problems : GP cards not as valuable as competition cards for EG ; 0.95% for single is too high for Aus Golf ; indexes not trustworthy enough for club representation eligibility in Ireland, some GP cards not acceptable in Mauritius. Scotland was doing its own thing on rounding, but has it now joined England ? And thats just from various contributors here. It certainly makes a mockery of the claim that we needed WHS so we would have one worldwide system. And worse, given such regional fixes, it confirms that WHS is inherently flawed, and that not just individual golfers, but regional associations do not trust it.

It is a failure.

Stats people point to a more even spread of winning handicaps but many just don't see that in their clubs.

I believe the 'clever' stats mindset behind WHS takes no account of the real golfer. They seem to have based it on the average golfer and defined him/her as a robot who scores reasonably consistently and improves or declines gradually. Most winners I see are widely erratic in their scoring and their 'form' means nothing.

With UHS a lot of these erratic players rarely got near the prizes and that was how it should be. The holy grail of consistency wasn't something they worked to achieve but now that grail has been devalued and club golf is suffering.

 

[SteveJay]

I've seen wedge shots from poor lies on the fairway where the pre-shot routine is,
waggle clubhead above ball, tap down
waggle clubhead above ball, tap down
waggle clubhead above ball, tap down
Those 3 taps are not grounding the club lightly to me.
But is this cheating or merely an infringement due to lack of knowledge of the rules? I wonder what view P. Reed would take.

i see that too, every time i watch any level of professional golf on TV. that sounds just like "lightly grounding" to me!!!

 

[wjemather]

So basically, one side is saying we have data which proves WHS is an improvement on what came before.
But the other says they have real world experience that suggests it's not.
And never the twain shall meet.

Not really, since everyone has plenty of real world experience.
It's more like knowledge and substantial data being countered for the most part with assertion, supposition, suspicion, fallacies, anecdotes, isolated results, and feelings.

 

[wjemather]

Given that this is now the all-things-WHS, would those defending the accuracy of its handicaps and that there is no issue at club competituon level, nevertheless agree that in its fundamental aim of a single global system, WHS is a spectacular failure ?

Whatever about clubs doing their own thing, thats quite a few local 'variations' being implemented, suggesting everyone is looking for sticking plasters for the WHS problems : GP cards not as valuable as competition cards for EG ; 0.95% for single is too high for Aus Golf ; indexes not trustworthy enough for club representation eligibility in Ireland, some GP cards not acceptable in Mauritius. Scotland was doing its own thing on rounding, but has it now joined England ? And thats just from various contributors here. It certainly makes a mockery of the claim that we needed WHS so we would have one worldwide system. And worse, given such regional fixes, it confirms that WHS is inherently flawed, and that not just individual golfers, but regional associations do not trust it.

You've posted this nonsense before. It was full of errors (misunderstanding , misrepresentation, fallacy, etc.) then, and that remains the case.

 

[Thintowin]

Not really, since everyone has plenty of real world experience.
It's more like knowledge and substantial data being countered for the most part with assertion, supposition, suspicion, fallacies, anecdotes, isolated results, and feelings.

If the data analysis is not backed up by players' experiences in the field, and it is not, maybe the wrong data is being analysed?

Perhaps you need to look at the spread of 8 counting scores in the winners bracket?

 

[bobmac]

Not really, since everyone has plenty of real world experience.
It's more like knowledge and substantial data being countered for the most part with assertion, supposition, suspicion, fallacies, anecdotes, isolated results, and feelings.

You can't even agree to disagree

 

[wjemather]

If the data analysis is not backed up by players' experiences in the field, and it is not, maybe the wrong data is being analysed?

Perhaps you need to look at the spread of 8 counting scores in the winners bracket?

Ah, the "I don't like your data, use mine" fallacy.

Sorry to disappoint, but it is your real world data that is being analysed.

 

[wjemather]

You can't even agree to disagree

So I'm not allowed to disagree with your mischaracterisation of the "sides" of the argument and their merits, particularly the insinuation that only one side has real world experience?

 

[Billysboots]

This thread is now up to nearly 900 posts and, whilst I haven’t followed it closely, every time I have dipped in it’s been a classic case of same stuff, different day.

We locked the WHS Survey thread yesterday because not only had it run its course, but the two threads had become mirror images of one another.

Personally, I am happy to see this thread continue, but that comes with a big caveat, and a question. Just what, exactly, do the two entrenched camps and main protagonists hope to achieve by continuing the back and forth? If it is to bully the opposition into submission I think we all know that’s not going to happen.

So, a genuine question please. Just where do you all see this thread going? More back and forth and banging of heads, or is keeping the exchange open actually going to start serving a useful purpose?

 

[Thintowin]

Ah, the "I don't like your data, use mine" fallacy.

Sorry to disappoint, but it is your real world data that is being analysed.

You appear to know so much and so defensive when challenged.

I did my own analysis of the regular winners, of which there are 7, at my club. They are all mid teens HI. They used to be high single figures. What was interesting was that in their 8 scoring rounds they still had a high percentage of doubles and worse, between 20% and 24% to be exact. That has made them matchplay specialists and they are unbeatable if they are playing 4BBB. What's more they are pretty successful at foursomes where their partner is a plodder.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I just wonder if this thread should be closed. It hasn't gone anywhere in the last 750 posts and some folk seem intent on making sure it doesn’t in the next 750.

I used to enjoy the rules forum

This would not be the only thread to be in this position, nor will it be the last. I agree that nothing new is coming out of it but multiple people are discussing the points and even if they are the same points, that is up to them.

If I was not a mod, I would not check this thread. No point. It is easily avoidable and does not affect any of the other threads in the rules section. This is a handicap issue, not rules, but the two were merged by request. As I say though, just ignore this particular thread.