Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Thintowin]

This thread is now up to nearly 900 posts and, whilst I haven’t followed it closely, every time I have dipped in it’s been a classic case of same stuff, different day.

We locked the WHS Survey thread yesterday because not only had it run its course, but the two threads had become mirror images of one another.

Personally, I am happy to see this thread continue, but that comes with a big caveat, and a question. Just what, exactly, do the two entrenched camps and main protagonists hope to achieve by continuing the back and forth? If it is to bully the opposition into submission I think we all know that’s not going to happen.

So, a genuine question please. Just where do you all see this thread going? More back and forth and banging of heads, or is keeping the exchange open actually going to start serving a useful purpose?

Please read the posts. There is a flow and gradually people are getting a wider view.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Please read the posts. There is a flow and gradually people are getting a wider view.

Nope, they really are not. For example, have you widened your view in any way, shape or form? There is side A and there is side B. Side C, the majority, doesn't bother getting involved.

 

[bobmac]

So I'm not allowed to disagree with your mischaracterisation of the "sides" of the argument and their merits, particularly the insinuation that only one side has real world experience?

No, of course you're allowed to disagree, I was just hoping you'd accept that others are also are allowed to disagree with your view, even though you are adamant your data is right

 

[Billysboots]

Please read the posts. There is a flow and gradually people are getting a wider view.

What, all 840 plus of them?!

I dip in occasionally and to be quite honest what I see could have been done several hundred posts ago. I don’t see any real meeting of minds and, whilst I don’t expect that given the subject matter and polarised views, it really has become Groundhog Day.

As I say, and LT has also alluded to it, I’m happy to leave the thread and let you all get on with it if it remains civil. But I have doubts that doing so will achieve anything. Ever!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This thread is now up to nearly 900 posts and, whilst I haven’t followed it closely, every time I have dipped in it’s been a classic case of same stuff, different day.

We locked the WHS Survey thread yesterday because not only had it run its course, but the two threads had become mirror images of one another.

Personally, I am happy to see this thread continue, but that comes with a big caveat, and a question. Just what, exactly, do the two entrenched camps and main protagonists hope to achieve by continuing the back and forth? If it is to bully the opposition into submission I think we all know that’s not going to happen.

So, a genuine question please. Just where do you all see this thread going? More back and forth and banging of heads, or is keeping the exchange open actually going to start serving a useful purpose?

Like so much in life these days in business and in life…a good outcome from change requires behaviours, processes and technology to all work well and in harmony. This thread demonstrates that, if there is an issue with WHS, we can’t agree which one (or more) of these three is failing. And if you can’t agree the root cause of an issue, you are never going to be able to develop a solution to fix it.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

No, of course you're allowed to disagree, I was just hoping you'd accept that others are also are allowed to disagree with your view, even though you are adamant your data is right

Their data is factual though, not anecdotal.

 

[bobmac]

Their data is factual though, not anecdotal.

And yet, once upon a time, someone said

Data can be almost anything, including facts and opinions.

 

[wjemather]

You appear to know so much and so defensive when challenged.

I did my own analysis of the regular winners, of which there are 7, at my club. They are all mid teens HI. They used to be high single figures. What was interesting was that in their 8 scoring rounds they still had a high percentage of doubles and worse, between 20% and 24% to be exact. That has made them matchplay specialists and they are unbeatable if they are playing 4BBB. What's more they are pretty successful at foursomes where their partner is a plodder.

You are describing an issue with a few individuals at your club rather than any problem with the system. It is something you should be contacting your handicap committee about if you believe there is a genuine problem, so they can investigate and taken any necessary action. I'd be happy to review any records if you pm the details.

 

[backwoodsman]

This would not be the only thread to be in this position, nor will it be the last. I agree that nothing new is coming out of it but multiple people are discussing the points and even if they are the same points, that is up to them.

If I was not a mod, I would not check this thread. No point. It is easily avoidable and does not affect any of the other threads in the rules section. This is a handicap issue, not rules, but the two were merged by request. As I say though, just ignore this particular thread.

Yep, I know - all points taken.

It was just a forlorn hope ...

 

[Thintowin]

You are describing an issue with a few individuals at your club rather than any problem with the system. It is something you should be contacting your handicap committee about if you believe there is a genuine problem, so they can investigate and taken any necessary action. I'd be happy to review any records if you pm the details.

It's not an issue with individuals. Our course is tough and there's no way you could point a finger at these guys. You could even argue that these guys have the correct handicaps but it's their lack of course management that is at fault for most of the time. When they knuckle down and think about what they're doing they are unbeatable. They all hit the ball like a single figure player but sometimes they should rein it in.

Some have realised that the only way to compete is to throw in a couple of bad holes coming in to make sure we get a shot or two back. Again, impossible to detect.

No one is reporting anyone. In fact the M&H guy is oblivious to anything. He just likes being on committee.

 

[D-S]

I think both mods have got this right. Entrenched views not going anywhere.

The sad thing for me, as someone who is actively involved in the administration of WHS, is that the question in the title of the thread has not been discussed nor have we had any practical suggestions that might help all handicap golfers.
If the thread could start trying to answer the original question perhaps we can make some progress.

 

[Thintowin]

I think both mods have got this right. Entrenched views not going anywhere.

The sad thing for me, as someone who is actively involved in the administration of WHS, is that the question in the title of the thread has not been discussed nor have we had any practical suggestions that might help all handicap golfers.
If the thread could start trying to answer the original question perhaps we can make some progress.

Seems to be a one sided view. Just as I thought we were getting somewhere!

 

[Neilds]

It's not an issue with individuals. Our course is tough and there's no way you could point a finger at these guys. You could even argue that these guys have the correct handicaps but it's their lack of course management that is at fault for most of the time. When they knuckle down and think about what they're doing they are unbeatable. They all hit the ball like a single figure player but sometimes they should rein it in.

Some have realised that the only way to compete is to throw in a couple of bad holes coming in to make sure we get a shot or two back. Again, impossible to detect.

No one is reporting anyone. In fact the M&H guy is oblivious to anything. He just likes being on committee.

But you just did!!! Do you like arguing that much you are now arguing with yourself?

 

[DickInShorts]

The title of this thread is:

Handicap Manipulation - and how to address.

After 851 posts I don’t think I’ve yet seen any answers to that question.

I’ve read every post - not sure why! - and there have been no solutions of how to address this perceived problem!

It seems that WHS is being blamed for the perennial problem in all walks of life of those determined to cheat - whatever system is in place they will find a way.

If there are no suggestions about how to end the perceived manipulation then I think this thread should be closed before people type thing they later regret

 

[Thintowin]

But you just did!!! Do you like arguing that much you are now arguing with yourself?

No, I did not.

I am explaining that the average golfer doesn't win anything. The characteristics of a winner at my club is such that they are erratic.

 

[Thintowin]

The title of this thread is:

Handicap Manipulation - and how to address.

After 851 posts I don’t think I’ve yet seen any answers to that question.

I’ve read every post - not sure why! - and there have been no solutions of how to address this perceived problem!

It seems that WHS is being blamed for the perennial problem in all walks of life of those determined to cheat - whatever system is in place they will find a way.

If there are no suggestions about how to end the perceived manipulation then I think this thread should be closed before people type thing they later regret

The answer to the original question is pretty simple for many, but not all, of us.

WHS needs to be fixed to make it less attractive to throw in rogue cards.

 

[Thintowin]

I'm sorry but I'm confused. What is the motive behind some wanting to close down a thread that is discussing the most significant issue with club golf?

This is Golf Monthly and there are threads that have nothing to do with golf, notably the footie thread, that have gone on and on.

 

[Voyager EMH]

No, I did not.

I am explaining that the average golfer doesn't win anything. The characteristics of a winner at my club is such that they are erratic.

I did my best round of last year on our Captain's Day. 41 points and came 4th. Got cut a fair bit.
Chap who won made 43 points off playing handicap of 24.
The next board comp the following month he made 18 points and I made 35 and I got cut a few more decimal places.
Just checked his HI. Gives him a playing handicap of 23.
But I don't believe he is deliberately manipulating.
Many years ago he would have been cut to 21 immediately for his winning score. No one would have considered that wrong.
I really think something like that needs to be brought in. Exceptional scoring of 7 and 10 below handicap is insufficient in my view.

 

[Billysboots]

I'm sorry but I'm confused. What is the motive behind some wanting to close down a thread that is discussing the most significant issue with club golf?

This is Golf Monthly and there are threads that have nothing to do with golf, notably the footie thread, that have gone on and on.

Oh come on. This is a community for golfers to discuss golf, but that doesn’t mean other subject matter isn’t welcome.

The football thread is not in a golf section of the forum. And there are several non-golf topics in Out Of Bounds which is intended purely for non-golf topics. Please don’t tell me you only discuss golf on the golf course.

 

[wjemather]

It's not an issue with individuals. Our course is tough and there's no way you could point a finger at these guys. You could even argue that these guys have the correct handicaps but it's their lack of course management that is at fault for most of the time. When they knuckle down and think about what they're doing they are unbeatable. They all hit the ball like a single figure player but sometimes they should rein it in.

Some have realised that the only way to compete is to throw in a couple of bad holes coming in to make sure we get a shot or two back. Again, impossible to detect.

No one is reporting anyone. In fact the M&H guy is oblivious to anything. He just likes being on committee.

So your real complaint is that there are a few golfers at your club who don't play conservatively when you believe they should, and you believe their nett double bogeys inflate their handicaps to such an extent that it enables them to win when they get away with it, or their course management is better.

The only workable solution to the non-problem you have identified is to reduce the maximum hole score to nett bogey for handicapping - and that is never going to happen.