Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Thintowin]

There was no data from those events where some clubs didn’t even put them through the ISVs

They used the data from single events and then used algorithms etc

Data, data, data.

What they mean is scores I assume. Do you have any data on course condition, weather, tee positions etc? On the latter, my course regularly moves the tees beyond what's acceptable for WHS scores but no one gives a damn.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Data, data, data.

What they mean is scores I assume. Do you have any data on course condition, weather, tee positions etc? On the latter, my course regularly moves the tees beyond what's acceptable for WHS scores but no one gives a damn.

Maybe you need to let your handicap secretary know then as when that happens the membership needs to be informed that the course is not acceptable for HC purposes - that’s what we do on a daily basis

 

[wjemather]

Data, data, data.

What they mean is scores I assume. Do you have any data on course condition, weather, tee positions etc? On the latter, my course regularly moves the tees beyond what's acceptable for WHS scores but no one gives a damn.

Did you ever stop to think that operating outside the specification and tolerance of the system is causing problems?

 

[jim8flog]

Yet we were assured the Comittees workload would not go up.!

Yet prior to the WHS every single Supplementary Score card was checked and the score entered on the players record by the staff and we had quite a few a day going in. So it be argued that the workload did not go up and actually went down particularly if players used the EG/Scottish app instead of PSI screens.

 

[Thintowin]

Did you ever stop to think that operating outside the tolerance of the system is causing problems?

It doesn't stop there. Playing in heavy winds and when the rough is brutal. Those also. The data doesn't tell the whole story, far from it.

 

[D-S]

I thought wjemather’s stat re card frequency was interesting. It suggested that over 2/3 of the membership had last 20 handicap records that included scores from over 2 years ago. This it seems is typical and therefore reflects how golf is played here 4 years after the inception of WHS and the ease of GP submission.
I believe this means that for the majority of club golfers WHS is not doing the job of reflecting current form, if indeed this is what it is supposed to do, despite the urging of EG and the successful efforts to make GP submission as easy and available as possible.
However it’s likely that a significant proportion of these players do not compete regularly or at all and as such their handicap is little used.
Should there be an expiration date for scores? Is this being considered? (I have not heard this discussed at any level).

 

[Colin L]

Could we all agree that in the best case scenario, if WHS is fine and has been a success in it goal, that it has somewhat failed in convincing some golfers that that is so. And so a statement, corroborative data, and rebuttal of some of the issues and charges people are making needs to be addressed by EG (not the R&A or USGA, as they are not responsible for the regional variant implementations of it).
A handicap system lives or dies on credibility and confidence. And even if the substance of WHS is working fine and as intended, they need to satisfy golfers on this point. The harm done by what are perceived (correctly or incorrectly) to be local sticking plaster fixes feeds this lack of confidence.
Doing nothing is not an option. Dismissing concerns as people not liking change, things need time to settle (its 4 years now), or simply annoying internet trolling, is an arrogant position to take and unacceptable. That would be like politicians simply ignoring a question until people get tired asking about it. And then claiming nobody has a problem with it any more.

Not so. Various options available to national authorities were built into the process from the beginning by the authors of the system mostly, if I remember correctly, to meet historical differences in systems round the world and allow time for them to come together completely. None of them make any difference to the fact that with a WHS handicap you can compete in open handicap competitions anywhere and return scores from anywhere with a rated course.

 

[wjemather]

It doesn't stop there. Playing in heavy winds and when the rough is brutal. Those also. The data doesn't tell the whole story, far from it.

So you're saying the rough at your club is also out of whack with the ratings?

 

[jim8flog]

This thread is now up to nearly 900 posts and, whilst I haven’t followed it closely, every time I have dipped in it’s been a classic case of same stuff, different day.

We locked the WHS Survey thread yesterday because not only had it run its course, but the two threads had become mirror images of one another.

Personally, I am happy to see this thread continue, but that comes with a big caveat, and a question. Just what, exactly, do the two entrenched camps and main protagonists hope to achieve by continuing the back and forth? If it is to bully the opposition into submission I think we all know that’s not going to happen.

So, a genuine question please. Just where do you all see this thread going? More back and forth and banging of heads, or is keeping the exchange open actually going to start serving a useful purpose?

Todays Monday most peoples courses are closed, too cold wet or snowy to leave the house even ....................

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It doesn't stop there. Playing in heavy winds and when the rough is brutal. Those also. The data doesn't tell the whole story, far from it.

Well no system can judge the weather and the course etc

The only thing that can be used is the scores that are submitted

 

[Thintowin]

I thought wjemather’s stat re card frequency was interesting. It suggested that over 2/3 of the membership had last 20 handicap records that included scores from over 2 years ago. This it seems is typical and therefore reflects how golf is played here 4 years after the inception of WHS and the ease of GP submission.
I believe this means that for the majority of club golfers WHS is not doing the job of reflecting current form, if indeed this is what it is supposed to do, despite the urging of EG and the successful efforts to make GP submission as easy and available as possible.
However it’s likely that a significant proportion of these players do not compete regularly or at all and as such their handicap is little used.
Should there be an expiration date for scores? Is this being considered? (I have not heard this discussed at any level).

Last summer was particularly tricky weatherwise. We have a group that goes out and plays 9 holes every week on a given morning. They go out whatever the weather and they get round somehow. They always put their cards into the system. A glance at their handicaps after the season and they've all gone up by at least 1, in some cases 3 shots. The rest of us may have gone up a little but some have also come down because we don't put ourselves through the mill on windy wet days.

How does that fit in your story?

 

[D-S]

Yet prior to the WHS every single Supplementary Score card was checked and the score entered on the players record by the staff and we had quite a few a day going in. So it be argued that the workload did not go up and actually went down particularly if players used the EG/Scottish app instead of PSI screens.

I believe for most clubs the submission of supplementary cards has increased exponentially and the tracking of these and checking is indeed a laborious task that some clubs do extremely diligently and discover and act upon many many issues that arise - many clubs do not and these issues are not addressed. The workload of a lot of committees has increased significantly with many clubs resorting to paid handicap and competition management posts.

 

[jim8flog]

The title of this thread is:

Handicap Manipulation - and how to address.

After 851 posts I don’t think I’ve yet seen any answers to that question.

I’ve read every post - not sure why! - and there have been no solutions of how to address this perceived problem!

It seems that WHS is being blamed for the perennial problem in all walks of life of those determined to cheat - whatever system is in place they will find a way.

If there are no suggestions about how to end the perceived manipulation then I think this thread should be closed before people type thing they later regret

I could not agree with that comment more

We had one guy in our swindle who was notorious for duffing the last few holes if he knew his score would result in a H/cap cut.

Low handicap players deliberately not returning cards as it would cause a handicap increase.

 

[D-S]

Last summer was particularly tricky weatherwise. We have a group that goes out and plays 9 holes every week on a given morning. They go out whatever the weather and they get round somehow. They always put their cards into the system. A glance at their handicaps after the season and they've all gone up by at least 1, in some cases 3 shots. The rest of us may have gone up a little but some have also come down because we don't put ourselves through the mill on windy wet days.

How does that fit in your story?

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by fitting in with ‘my story’?

 

[Thintowin]

So you're saying the rough at your club is also out of whack with the ratings?

In certain months it can be very penal. It even varies day to day. Dry conditions are very playable but when wet there are those that just can't get it back in the fairway. That's one of the reasons we see so many mid handicappers who should be lower. They have too many unfinished holes by comparison to those who can keep it on the short stuff or know to take a wedge to get back into play.

 

[Thintowin]

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by fitting in with ‘my story’?

I mean I take your point about an expiry date but there are many variables as to why some people play competitively more regularly than others. Encouraging people to play more than they would do otherwise isn't likely to help them maintain an accurate handicap, whatever that means.

 

[Voyager EMH]

So what happened after these 2 rounds? To judge if your cuts back in the 70’s were fair or not compared to how WHS, you’d have to look at how long your handicap took to settle to a honest level.

I kept the 5 handicap for the rest of the year and the following year as far as I remember.
I think there was something about more than one score below 5 before you got cut - possibly 4 scores - memory not perfect on that one.
Anyway, I played to 5 or better enough times in the year to keep that handicap.
Cuts were "fair" under the rules at the time.
Cuts are "fair" under the current rules, but very different.
Immediate cut after one round based on net score as opposed to a range of gross scores going back 20 scores.
Current system does have a scope for an extra immediate reduction of one shot based a SD of 7 under HI or two shots for a SD of 10 under HI.
I think that this could be improved, and needs to be improved.

 

[D-S]

I mean I take your point about an expiry date but there are many variables as to why some people play competitively more regularly than others. Encouraging people to play more than they would do otherwise isn't likely to help them maintain an accurate handicap, whatever that means.

So do you think that having less than 20 scores (15, 10?) forming your record would be a better idea? Or are you happy with 20?

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

I mean I take your point about an expiry date but there are many variables as to why some people play competitively more regularly than others. Encouraging people to play more than they would do otherwise isn't likely to help them maintain an accurate handicap, whatever that means.

Could you tell us what you mean by an accurate handicap? And how the previous systems ensured everyone had an accurate handicap.

Can you please also define the consistency you keep referring to?

 

[D-S]

On the latter, my course regularly moves the tees beyond what's acceptable for WHS scores but no one gives a damn.

I assume by this your course is actually moving the tees further back than is acceptable under WHS as you state that players handicaps are going up in winter as the course is tougher?

Experience suggests that most courses typically in winter move their tees too far forward thereby making scores unacceptable.