Handicap manipulation - how to address

[wjemather]

Those putting in GP score will naturally, even without any deliberate or premeditated cheating scheme, have higher handicaps than those putting in competition cards for their handicaps.

What is your evidence for this claim?
The data I see suggests GP scores are generally similar, and slightly better overall, than competition scores.

In the US, they have the counterbalancing effect of Mulligans, gimmees, and not counting the odd lost ball.

They have to play to the same rules of golf as we do - no mulligans, no gimmes, no ignoring lost balls.

 

[D-S]

I dont think that is the case. Yes the barrier to entry to cheating is now lower, and there is some more of it, and it requires more work and cleaning up by committees, but I dont think it is dramatically spoiling the handicap world.
Some percieved cheating is probably coming from the push for GP scores. Those putting in GP score will naturally, even without any deliberate or premeditated cheating scheme, have higher handicaps than those putting in competition cards for their handicaps. Giving them an advantage when they do play in a competition against pur comp Index players. Easily misinterpreted as cheating. Comp and GP cards is trying to compare apples and oranges. In the US, they have the counterbalancing effect of Mulligans, gimmees, and not counting the odd lost ball. But that culture is still frowned on here, coming from our background of puritan competition scores determining your handicap. EG is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole on this. Its why it is failing.

Again I have some sympathy with some of the points you make however I do totally disagree with you final point. At most clubs that I talk to, as well as my own, there has been no drop off at all in the number or participation rate in competitions. There is no groundswell at all that I have heard of to move away from WHS or return to UHS.

 

[Dunesman]

They have to play to the same rules of golf as we do - no mulligans, no gimmes, no ignoring lost balls.

The reality is that they dont though when playing friendly games that forms the bulk of their rounds. We cannot be so dogmatic as to say that the rules say they can play gimmees, therefore they dont play gimmees.

 

[Dunesman]

What is your evidence for this claim?
The data I see suggests GP scores are generally similar, and slightly better overall, than competition scores.

That people simply dont give every round the same attention and diligence to perform to their best. Or they apply some of the mulligan/gimmee philosophy to redress the balance. But most dont, and will not give every shot their best, when just playing a friend yet playing a GP card. Motivation naturally drops. They will take on a carry, or high risk shot - why not, its just a GP round. This is human nature, and hanging on the rule that says a golfer must try his best to the emd because the rule says he must, is head in the sand.

 

[Dunesman]

Again I have some sympathy with some of the points you make however I do totally disagree with you final point. At most clubs that I talk to, as well as my own, there has been no drop off at all in the number or participation rate in competitions. There is no groundswell at all that I have heard of to move away from WHS or return to UHS.

On your last line, nor have I, and I havent said there is either. And yes, the drop off is only a handful who want to make their point. But that does not mean a significant number are not unhappy. Much of it is more of a resigned disillusionment and sense of having been hoodwinked. WHS was supposed to be progress. Instead, the clear negatives outweigh any positives, if there are any positives. I think most like CR and slope. But the disruption to the world of handicap competitions is seen as having only being negatively impacted. It was reasonable to have expected no negatives at all.

 

[wjemather]

The reality is that they dont though when playing friendly games that forms the bulk of their rounds. We cannot be so dogmatic as to say that the rules say they can play gimmees, therefore they dont play gimmees.

They commonly play match play, not stroke play and use MLS - not gimmes - for handicapping.

 

[wjemather]

That people simply dont give every round the same attention and diligence to perform to their best. Or they apply some of the mulligan/gimmee philosophy to redress the balance. But most dont, and will not give every shot their best, when just playing a friend yet playing a GP card. Motivation naturally drops. They will take on a carry, or high risk shot - why not, its just a GP round. This is human nature, and hanging on the rule that says a golfer must try his best to the emd because the rule says he must, is head in the sand.

So no evidence then; only pure speculation about behaviour and the success rate of riskier shots.

You could equally postulate that casual rounds don't carry the same pressure and good conditions can be cherry-picked so are easier to score well, whereas competition rounds must be played regardless of conditions and are more likely to be given up on once winning is no longer possible.

 

[Dunesman]

So no evidence then; only pure speculation about behaviour and the success rate of riskier shots.

You could equally postulate that casual rounds don't carry the same pressure and good conditions can be cherry-picked so are easier to score well, whereas competition rounds must be played regardless of conditions and are more likely to be given up on once winning is no longer possible.

One could.
But when the concern is accuracy of handicaps in competition is what is being question, that postulation ends up with the same problem - contamination of handicap for competition with non competition rounds.

 

[doublebogey7]

I have never mentioned my handicap.

I do not work for, or with, any of the organisations associated with WHS implementation. Of course to say you have that level of vested interest would make your argument invalid so no one is likely to step forward. Nevertheless my own experience tells me that the position of some of the arguments, often solely based on stats, makes me suspicious.

So you agreewith my earlier comments re debate and data. Mind beyond saiing WHS is rubbish I am unsure what you have added to this debate.

For your information I have a single figure handicap and have for the last couple of decades though age is now catching up with me.

The only personal interest I have/had with regards to WHS, is its implimentation within my club which enables me to gather the data I talked of earlier.

 

[Dunesman]

They commonly play match play, not stroke play and use MLS - not gimmes - for handicapping.

Its not just about gimmees. But a general casualness to the rules of scoring.

 

[wjemather]

One could.
But when the concern is accuracy of handicaps in competition is what is being question, that postulation ends up with the same problem - contamination of handicap for competition with non competition rounds.

Again, you are just speculating. Where is your evidence?

 

[Thintowin]

It’d be good to know as it would be nice to have at least one fact in his posts

This is beyond a joke. I for one am quite happy to "step forward" and let you know of my involvement with the transition to the WHS as, along with others, a volunteer handicap adviser. We were recruited by our national authority to support clubs in the transition to WHS; we all had a considerable depth of knowledge of the UHS and experience in managing it; and we were all given a very sound grounding in the workings of the new worldwide system. The introduction to it was an intensive two day workshop conducted by the very impressive USGA and R&A officers who led the entire project. That's right, the top guns of the group you described as halfwits. Of the others I have encountered in this supposedly half-witted group whether full-time paid officials or unpaid volunteers have been impressively knowledgeable and committed to getting it as right as possible.

I don't care much about your sounding off about cheating in the return of scores without coming up with any suggestion of what to do about it other than the absurdity of scrapping the entire WHS system. It's frustrating, but I can put up with your unswerving avoidance of saying anything at all about the actual system. But when you start impugning the integrity of these people - and incidentally mine - that's a step too far.

There are some who would say that depth of knowledge and experience gives greater strength to an argument rather than invalidates it.

I can assure you that I fully understand how WHS works. I'm not that infantile that I would wade in to a discussion without knowing my subject matter.

If I'd been privileged enough to have had access to the top guys I'd have asked them this obvious question. Why have you taken a simple mean average of 8 cards and just ignored the range of those cards? If these guys are top statistical geniuses they are hiding it well.

 

[Dunesman]

Again, you are just speculating. Where is your evidence?

Yes, speculation, but that doesnt devalue it. What is not speculation is that a significant proportion of UK amateur golfers, to varying degrees, are not happy with WHS. In the absense of data to restore confidence, speculation fills the void. EG have not convinced golfers that WHS is fair, equitable, and has delivered benefits to them that were not in the old system. The silence, or lack of rebuttal of such discontent only fuels that discontent and scepticism. Open to the charge of being speculation again, but speculation is not necessarily incorrect, but that the silence is due to there being no cogent rebuttal is fair speculation. Closed ears and just toughing things out rightly raises mistrust.

 

[Captain_Black.]

I'm rather late to this discussion, although I have posted something very similar in the past.
The discussion usually takes the form of those who have experienced it themselves & agree that it is a huge & growing problem within the game & those (for whatever reason?) choose who to excuse it by offering up all kinds of ridiculous excuses for it.

But.

As a seasoned player myself, who has pretty much seen it all, I'm afraid the Genie is out of the bottle & nobody is going to put it back.
Golf has always had a strong ethos of self regulation, a bit like cricket, when you know you are out, you walk.
That ethos is fast disappearing, those who are inclined to cheat will do so.
Others who see this going on (we do) will become increasingly frustrated the way the game is being ruined by a minority.

In the past, the cheating & manipulation would have been quickly called out & stopped.
But, in todays woke atmosphere that just isn't going to happen, plus I do have some sympathy for the handicap & competition secretary's, as proving the cheating & effective action is very difficult.
I've even witnessed threats of legal action against clubs who have singled out an individual for wrong doing.

I personally have just accepted that the game as far as amateur competition is concerned has gone to rat *** & there is no getting it back.
I now just play to be the best I can & have a chuckle at the outrageous scores coming in at the end of play.

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm rather late to this discussion, although I have posted something very similar in the past.
The discussion usually takes the form of those who have experienced it themselves & agree that it is a huge & growing problem within the game & those (for whatever reason?) choose who to excuse it by offering up all kinds of ridiculous excuses for it.

But.

As a seasoned player myself, who has pretty much seen it all, I'm afraid the Genie is out of the bottle & nobody is going to put it back.
Golf has always had a strong ethos of self regulation, a bit like cricket, when you know you are out, you walk.
That ethos is fast disappearing, those who are inclined to cheat will do so.
Others who see this going on (we do) will become increasingly frustrated the way the game is being ruined by a minority.

In the past, the cheating & manipulation would have been quickly called out & stopped.
But, in todays woke atmosphere that just isn't going to happen, plus I do have some sympathy for the handicap & competition secretary's, as proving the cheating & effective action is very difficult.
I've even witnessed threats of legal action against clubs who have singled out an individual for wrong doing.

I personally have just accepted that the game as far as amateur competition is concerned has gone to rat *** & there is no getting it back.
I now just play to be the best I can & have a chuckle at the outrageous scores coming in at the end of play.

That’s a sad enditment of the game.
But as a seasoned player of 40+ yrs I have to agree.

 

[wjemather]

Yes, speculation, but that doesnt devalue it. What is not speculation is that a significant proportion of UK amateur golfers, to varying degrees, are not happy with WHS. In the absense of data to restore confidence, speculation fills the void. EG have not convinced golfers that WHS is fair, equitable, and has delivered benefits to them that were not in the old system. The silence, or lack of rebuttal of such discontent only fuels that discontent and scepticism. Open to the charge of being speculation again, but speculation is not necessarily incorrect, but that the silence is due to there being no cogent rebuttal is fair speculation. Closed ears and just toughing things out rightly raises mistrust.

Pure speculation based on zero evidence has very little value. And as I've said already, the data I have access to doesn't support your postulations, particularly regarding the effect (of speculated mass behaviour) on scores.

 

[Thintowin]

That’s a sad enditment of the game.
But as a seasoned player of 40+ yrs I have to agree.

Indeed, and me. However a small piece of me still thinks it can be fixed.

 

[jim8flog]

In the CONGU countries it isn't. In other areas such as the USA, it is. In time, CONGU might move to accepting match play scores, although I would hope not. It's possible of course to do it but I fear it would have an adverse effect on match play. For your score you would have to play by stroke play rules. Just two examples. Having to hole out every hole is the most obvious but affects both/all players. Your opponent plays a wrong ball and you have won the hole but for the opponent's score he has to go back, find the right ball and play the hole out or not find the right ball and go even further back under stroke and distance. What are you doing in the meantime? What is that doing to the momentum of the match?

By the way, does anyone know the outcome of the trialling of returning scores from matchplay in Ireland?

As per Rulefan it as been discontinued.

 

[jim8flog]

Nor have you ever specified which specific features you have objections to. Perhaps you will lets us know and what the specific solutions should be.

For starters, I will say my only major problem is with GP score management. I don't like the absence of full pre and post validation permitted by some countries and some ISVs in the UK.
The neglect of post return score checking by some handicap committees is not a fault of WHS but has shed a light on how poor many are (and probably always have been). Their reliance on the Annual Handicap Review was a disaster waiting to happen.

We get around 40 general play scores a day where I play just imagine the man hours and cost (it is an office function) involved to check that lot.
It was discussed with county and they advised to check a random sample only of about 1 in 10.

 

[rulefan]

Yes, speculation, but that doesnt devalue it. What is not speculation is that a significant proportion of UK amateur golfers, to varying degrees, are not happy with WHS.

Where did you get this information?