GM Top 100 courses

[MendieGK]

Mike,

I haven't been on the forum for a while - I know I deserve to be flogged!

However, I wanted to let you know that in my opinion GM has without doubt done the right thing and not included those courses that want to be exclusive and not allow visitors to play. I look at it from a simple standpoint. If a club of the stature of Sunningdale can open it's gates and welcome visitors with open arms, why can't everyone else?

I get that if if a club wants to be 'exclusive' then fine. But, and it's a big but, isn't golf better than that? Surely we want to allow all of us who love this game that drives us mad the chance to play the best courses around the UK and Ireland and for that matter, the world.

Those in charge of some clubs with wonderful courses need to have a bit of a re-think. Stop being so bloody inward looking and let us all have the chance, if only once, to enjoy the thrill of playing the likes of Wentworth etc. I think the game would be better off if they did and showed that golf isn't so damned elitist.

I think they are probably doing ok to be honest.
I maintain they should be included - its top 100 courses in UK, not top 100 that are open to the general public. If you want that, go and read Todays Golfer!

 

[3puttmaster]

Golf is not better than that. Its got so much history and tradition that some places feel its important to keep it to that, which is fine. Golf (like a lot of things that cost money) is elitist. No different to Saville Row, Mayfair gentlemen's club or top restaurants.

Thats not to say i agree with it or not...

I hear what you say.

That doesn't mean to say that those golf clubs that view themselves as being above those of us who don't have pots of money can't change their policy towards visitors. They obviously can set quotas per day for visitors so it doesn't get out of hand, but, I just don't get why they wouldn't want to open their doors and allow golfers the privilege of playing at their venue. It would just be refreshing to see some golf clubs shed that elitist image that they portray, however, I won't be holding my breath and that in my opinion is a shame.

 

[Mike07]

I hear what you say.

That doesn't mean to say that those golf clubs that view themselves as being above those of us who don't have pots of money can't change their policy towards visitors. They obviously can set quotas per day for visitors so it doesn't get out of hand, but, I just don't get why they wouldn't want to open their doors and allow golfers the privilege of playing at their venue. It would just be refreshing to see some golf clubs shed that elitist image that they portray, however, I won't be holding my breath and that in my opinion is a shame.

Very simple answer is they don't need to and they don't want to. The great thing for us golfers is that there are still an overwhelming number of top quality courses we can play and are 'open'.

I agree with MendieGK, its a shame the exclusive clubs are not included in the list, but understand the stance GM have taken.

 

[Junior]

Mike,

I haven't been on the forum for a while - I know I deserve to be flogged!

However, I wanted to let you know that in my opinion GM has without doubt done the right thing and not included those courses that want to be exclusive and not allow visitors to play. I look at it from a simple standpoint. If a club of the stature of Sunningdale can open it's gates and welcome visitors with open arms, why can't everyone else?

I get that if if a club wants to be 'exclusive' then fine. But, and it's a big but, isn't golf better than that? Surely we want to allow all of us who love this game that drives us mad the chance to play the best courses around the UK and Ireland and for that matter, the world.

Those in charge of some clubs with wonderful courses need to have a bit of a re-think. Stop being so bloody inward looking and let us all have the chance, if only once, to enjoy the thrill of playing the likes of Wentworth etc. I think the game would be better off if they did and showed that golf isn't so damned elitist.

I agree with you. Don't include them.

That said, I bare no grudge against them. If I was a member of such a club (and I never would want to, or will be) and paid ridiculous sums of money on the basis it was uber exclusive and not open to visitors, then I would not want it to be open to the public. There is a market for such courses (Loch Lomond, Queenwood) and that is why they exist.

 

[3puttmaster]

I think they are probably doing ok to be honest.
I maintain they should be included - its top 100 courses in UK, not top 100 that are open to the general public. If you want that, go and read Todays Golfer!

Well we'll just agree to disagree.

I never have, and I never will understand why any club would not allow visitors. Set numbers per day or stipulate when in the week visitors can play but don't install electric fences and guards at the gate armed with AK47's barring those who don't own a Bentley or a Ferrari from entering. I'd like to see a shift away from the elitist mentality but I won't hold my breath.

 

[3puttmaster]

I agree with you. Don't include them.

That said, I bare no grudge against them. If I was a member of such a club (and I never would want to, or will be) and paid ridiculous sums of money on the basis it was uber exclusive and not open to visitors, then I would not want it to be open to the public. There is a market for such courses (Loch Lomond, Queenwood) and that is why they exist.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hold any grudges and I can totally understand why these clubs adopt the policies on visitors that they do. You're quite right in that the great and good don't want to be seen within 100 yards of 4 guys turning up at their club. After all, they see themselves as being above golfers such as me but I want golf clubs to shed this inward mentality. A small shift in their thinking could allow golf to become more open and not be so stuck up it's own ar*e!

 

[Hobbit]

I hear what you say.

That doesn't mean to say that those golf clubs that view themselves as being above those of us who don't have pots of money can't change their policy towards visitors. They obviously can set quotas per day for visitors so it doesn't get out of hand, but, I just don't get why they wouldn't want to open their doors and allow golfers the privilege of playing at their venue. It would just be refreshing to see some golf clubs shed that elitist image that they portray, however, I won't be holding my breath and that in my opinion is a shame.

Why can't a private member's club decide its own policy? And its those on the outside that label it elitist, whilst those on the inside might label it exclusive. I'm not, nor ever will be, in the position to even apply to join one of the elitist clubs you speak of, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I could afford to pay to visit but, again, it doesn't bother that they won't allow it.

I'd like to have a drive of next door's Porsche but I'm not all green with envy or stamping my foot and shouting entitlement that so many in society do...

I honestly just don't get it. Their club, their rules, and I'll not waste my breath or push my blood pressure on a I should be entitled to visit.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Why can't a private member's club decide its own policy? And its those on the outside that label it elitist, whilst those on the inside might label it exclusive. I'm not, nor ever will be, in the position to even apply to join one of the elitist clubs you speak of, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I could afford to pay to visit but, again, it doesn't bother that they won't allow it.

I'd like to have a drive of next door's Porsche but I'm not all green with envy or stamping my foot and shouting entitlement that so many in society do...

I honestly just don't get it. Their club, their rules, and I'll not waste my breath or push my blood pressure on a I should be entitled to visit.

Totally agree, there are also private clubs that have exclusion rules that wouldn't make it into the top 100, not every Club that excludes itself is automatically a top course.

 

[Canmore]

Don't get me wrong, I don't hold any grudges and I can totally understand why these clubs adopt the policies on visitors that they do. You're quite right in that the great and good don't want to be seen within 100 yards of 4 guys turning up at their club. After all, they see themselves as being above golfers such as me but I want golf clubs to shed this inward mentality. A small shift in their thinking could allow golf to become more open and not be so stuck up it's own ar*e!

How can you make a generalisation like that? Of course some of these golfers may be like that, but generally I think you would find most people are friendly enough at these so called elitist golf clubs.

its meant to be a Top 100 list - we should include the best courses, not just the ones which are open to visitors. How do you decide what is open to the public? Surely a £200 green fee is beyond most golfers, so would you exclude courses like this?

 

[MendieGK]

How can you make a generalisation like that? Of course some of these golfers may be like that, but generally I think you would find most people are friendly enough at these so called elitist golf clubs.

its meant to be a Top 100 list - we should include the best courses, not just the ones which are open to visitors. How do you decide what is open to the public? Surely a £200 green fee is beyond most golfers, so would you exclude courses like this?

Every course is accessible in the UK if you work hard enough at it. I've played all wentworths, Bearwood and also Remedy (which is semi-exclusive) without paying anything more than a guest green fee.

I've got a contact who'se at the Wisley so will get on there eventually too.

Ask anyone on here thats played Bearwood (through their contact on this forum) and they will tell you it should 100 be in the top 100 courses list.

 

[3puttmaster]

Unfortunately I've experienced stuffy attitudes at some clubs within the Top 100 when visiting so I can only imagine what those who want to stay totally 'closed' to non members are like. Yes, it's a generalisation but if these clubs and its members wanted to project a more welcoming and open image, surely they'd put the wheels in motion via an AGM or EGM to change these policies. The fact they don't tells me that they deem themselves too important, exclusive or just simply don't want visitors at their club which I find a shame.

We shall never agree on the issue of these clubs being on the list. I think GM have done the right thing. Golf has a massive image problem (hence the recent female members saga at Royal Troon and Muirfield) and some clubs are adding to this by pulling up the drawbridge.

If a club wants to set a ridiculous green fee then fine but at least you can save up and play it, even if it's only once. I paid nearly £450 years ago to play Pebble Beach but at least I got to play it and loved every minute of it. But at least I had the opportunity to play it and that's my point.

 

[MendieGK]

Unfortunately I've experienced stuffy attitudes at some clubs within the Top 100 when visiting so I can only imagine what those who want to stay totally 'closed' to non members are like. Yes, it's a generalisation but if these clubs and its members wanted to project a more welcoming and open image, surely they'd put the wheels in motion via an AGM or EGM to change these policies. The fact they don't tells me that they deem themselves too important, exclusive or just simply don't want visitors at their club which I find a shame.

We shall never agree on the issue of these clubs being on the list. I think GM have done the right thing. Golf has a massive image problem (hence the recent female members saga at Royal Troon and Muirfield) and some clubs are adding to this by pulling up the drawbridge.

If a club wants to set a ridiculous green fee then fine but at least you can save up and play it, even if it's only once. I paid nearly £450 years ago to play Pebble Beach but at least I got to play it and loved every minute of it. But at least I had the opportunity to play it and that's my point.

You couldnt be more wrong about the way that exclusive clubs treat non-members. They treat you like royalty. Wentworth offers the best service you could possibly ever asked for.

i still think your missing the point. Golf Monthly call it the 2017/18 Course Rankings NOT 2017/18 Club Rankings.
Would you want, Cypress point or Augusta removed from the world top 100 list? that would be braindead

 

[3puttmaster]

Every course is accessible in the UK if you work hard enough at it. I've played all wentworths, Bearwood and also Remedy (which is semi-exclusive) without paying anything more than a guest green fee.

I've got a contact who'se at the Wisley so will get on there eventually too.

Ask anyone on here thats played Bearwood (through their contact on this forum) and they will tell you it should 100 be in the top 100 courses list.

I too have played Bearwood when I was a Golf Club Secretary on one of their away days. I liked the course and I agree with you, it would probably be nudging into the Top 100 at some point.

But it's this that I find very strange. I could play it as a GC Secretary and yet my golfing pals, many of them low handicappers and one who is a County player can't play it as a visitor. I just don't get it and I never will. I have experienced at close quarters the 'anti visitor' mentality and I find it abhorrent. I want golf to make strides forward in making itself more open and forward thinking but these inward looking approaches of some clubs set the wrong image. I just find it sad and ultimately very disappointing.

 

[Canmore]

You couldnt be more wrong about the way that exclusive clubs treat non-members. They treat you like royalty. Wentworth offers the best service you could possibly ever asked for.

i still think your missing the point. Golf Monthly call it the 2017/18 Course Rankings NOT 2017/18 Club Rankings.
Would you want, Cypress point or Augusta removed from the world top 100 list? that would be braindead

Completely agree with this! The more exclusive clubs treat their guests like royalty

If only some visitors would treat the course with the same respect - I think some members do get annoyed when a society come in and hack up the course...

actually dont Gilf Digest do a public course ranking list?

 

[3puttmaster]

You couldnt be more wrong about the way that exclusive clubs treat non-members. They treat you like royalty. Wentworth offers the best service you could possibly ever asked for.

i still think your missing the point. Golf Monthly call it the 2017/18 Course Rankings NOT 2017/18 Club Rankings.
Would you want, Cypress point or Augusta removed from the world top 100 list? that would be braindead

I don't doubt for one second that Wentworth offers unrivalled levels of service and has swanky changing rooms. I'm sure if you are lucky enough to get an invite as a guest of a member that the day would be utterly wonderful. However, I just don't understand the mentality of not allowing a small allocation of visitor slots per day or on certain days of the week, just like Sunningdale, Swinley Forest etc.

If you want to call me brain dead then that's fine but my opinion is that golf has an image problem. Good strides have been made in recent years with incentives to get more people to play the game. Also the bridging of the gap between men and women at clubs (Muirfield and Royal Troon as visible examples) have been made too. I wouldn't include the likes of Augusta and Cypress Point in any rankings if it won't allow visitors. Yes they are wonderful courses, both I'm sure in pristine condition.

I just find it strange that you can play Pebble Beach, Spanish Bay and Spyglass Hill but can't play Cypress Point unless you can get one of their 200 members to sign you in as their guest. Even being a Golf Club Secretary at the time couldn't sway them into allowing me to play! There is nothing worse as a golfer than being stood 50 yards from the first tee in one of the most stunning locations for golf in the world and being told you can't play that course. For that mental torture alone it doesn't deserve to be on any list!

 

[Gopher]

Completely agree with this! The more exclusive clubs treat their guests like royalty

If only some visitors would treat the course with the same respect - I think some members do get annoyed when a society come in and hack up the course...

actually dont Gilf Digest do a public course ranking list?

I agree too, it's the real top end, exclusive clubs that treat their guests like royalty, nothing is too difficult and the welcome is as warm as though you are a 30 year member. Castle Stuart is a good example of this.

However there are clubs that are desperate to gain the exclusivity, really want to be special but just aren't quite there and are trying too hard to gain that reputation. They are the ones which offer less than a warm welcome to non-members in my experience.

 

[3565]

actually dont Gilf Digest do a public course ranking list?

I think you need to re edit that sentence??? 😂

 

[Hobbit]

I don't doubt for one second that Wentworth offers unrivalled levels of service and has swanky changing rooms. I'm sure if you are lucky enough to get an invite as a guest of a member that the day would be utterly wonderful. However, I just don't understand the mentality of not allowing a small allocation of visitor slots per day or on certain days of the week, just like Sunningdale, Swinley Forest etc.

If you want to call me brain dead then that's fine but my opinion is that golf has an image problem. Good strides have been made in recent years with incentives to get more people to play the game. Also the bridging of the gap between men and women at clubs (Muirfield and Royal Troon as visible examples) have been made too. I wouldn't include the likes of Augusta and Cypress Point in any rankings if it won't allow visitors. Yes they are wonderful courses, both I'm sure in pristine condition.

I just find it strange that you can play Pebble Beach, Spanish Bay and Spyglass Hill but can't play Cypress Point unless you can get one of their 200 members to sign you in as their guest. Even being a Golf Club Secretary at the time couldn't sway them into allowing me to play! There is nothing worse as a golfer than being stood 50 yards from the first tee in one of the most stunning locations for golf in the world and being told you can't play that course. For that mental torture alone it doesn't deserve to be on any list!

Why should they allocate some visitors slots if they don't want to? Also, they aren't responsible for golf's image, that's the remit of the R&A/England Golf/Scottish Golf etc.

I used to be a member of a club that chased more members and visitors. It got virtually impossible to rock up and play on an evening after work. I was very glad to move to a club that set a low limit for members and visitors. I could play pretty much when I wanted.

 

[MendieGK]

. Good strides have been made in recent years with incentives to get more people to play the game. Also the bridging of the gap between men and women at clubs (Muirfield and Royal Troon as visible examples)

you really think these courses would have changed their rules if it didn't mean they would have lost the open?

Its an interesting to debate, but this list is no longer the top 100 courses in the UK. thats all i am trying to get across. Your talk around exclusivity and growth of the game is not relevant in any debate around quality of course.

 

[NWJocko]

I too have played Bearwood when I was a Golf Club Secretary on one of their away days. I liked the course and I agree with you, it would probably be nudging into the Top 100 at some point.

But it's this that I find very strange. I could play it as a GC Secretary and yet my golfing pals, many of them low handicappers and one who is a County player can't play it as a visitor. I just don't get it and I never will. I have experienced at close quarters the 'anti visitor' mentality and I find it abhorrent. I want golf to make strides forward in making itself more open and forward thinking but these inward looking approaches of some clubs set the wrong image. I just find it sad and ultimately very disappointing.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective

They aren't "anti-visitor" more "pro member". i.e. the members are paying a premium to be a member of that club and enjoy the level of service offered so their priority is catering for them.

This isn't limited to golf clubs either.