Found embedded ball by treading on it - any penalties??

[bobmac]

You caused your ball to move - penalty - it is as simple as that

Not in Dels eyes.
He thinks that because the ball is plugged and he is allowed to lift and clean it that it is temporarily out of play and it shouldn't matter whether he lifts it before or after he stands on it, it's still plugged.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not in Dels eyes.
He thinks that because the ball is plugged and he is allowed to lift and clean it that it is temporarily out of play and it shouldn't matter whether he lifts it before or after he stands on it, it's still plugged.

But he doesnt know 100% that the ball was plugged before he stood on it

 

[bobmac]

But he doesnt know 100% that the ball was plugged before he stood on it

I'm afraid I don't know what Del doesn't know

 

[rulie]

But he doesnt know 100% that the ball was plugged before he stood on it

That's irrelevant. He caused his ball in play to move. Breach of 18-2a, one stroke penalty and replace or proceed under an applicable Rule, and include the one stroke penalty in his score.

Same result as ten days ago! Nothing has changed.

 

[user2010]

What happened if i accidently kicked the ball into a better place ? Penalised ?

If you read Rulefans post properly, ( the bit I underlined is the crucial part)you will see that my quote, which you`ve quoted, was in reference to Rulefan taking the flag out in the wrong direction and causing the ball to not finish in the hole and nothing at all to do with accidently kicking the ball to a better place, which everyone knows is a penalty and the ball must be replaced.

 

[delc]

But he doesnt know 100% that the ball was plugged before he stood on it

Yes I was sure it was completely plugged before I trod on it.

 

[Imurg]

Yes I was sure it was completely plugged before I trod on it.

Whether you did or not changes nothing.......

 

[Colin L]

Yes I was sure it was completely plugged before I trod on it.

You may have felt sure but you were wrong. You did not see your ball before you stood on it and so could not know how it lay. Anyway it wouldn’t have made any difference even it had been embedded. 1 stroke penalty under 18-2.

That’s the ruling you’d have got from me had I been your referee. It’s the same as you’d have got from others well qualified to make that ruling. Now, straight answers to two straight questions, please:

Are you saying that I and the others would have been wrong to rule thus? Just a yes or no.
If you aren’t prepared to listen to and accept the help you are given here, why do you ask the question in the first place?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes I was sure it was completely plugged before I trod on it.

Impossible to know because you didn't see it

You caused the ball to move - shot penalty accept it

 

[chrisd]

Yes I was sure it was completely plugged before I trod on it.

Which changes precisly nothing as far as the rules are concerned

 

[Slab]

What if after being trod on (ball moving) and the foot being removed, the spongy consistency of the ground was just right such that it forced the ball to move again back to its original position (which wasn't known)

 

[Foxholer]

Who`s trolling?
I`m just trying to understand why an accidental act warrants an unfair penalty(imo) and you STILL have to replace the ball, yet a deliberate act of moving an object(flagstick) saves you a shot.

I play by the Rules but they can sometimes seem very unfair and contradictory.

The Rules don't need to be 'fair', though they generally make a pretty good job of being so.

What they are absolutely though is 'equitable'!

 

[delc]

Exactly the same thing happened to one of my playing companions this morning, in roughly the same semi-rough area at the same hole. We couldn't find his ball in fairly short semi-rough until he accidentally trod on it! Once again it had completely embedded itself in its own pitch mark. Can an area of rather soft mud be considered as an Abnormal Ground Condition?

 

[chrisd]

Exactly the same thing happened to one of my playing companions this morning, in roughly the same semi-rough area of the same hole. We couldn't find his ball in fairly short semi-rough until he accidentally trod on it! Once again it had completely embedded itself in its own pitch mark. Can an area of rather soft mud be considered as an Abnormal Ground Condition?

Soft mushy ground is not AGC there has to be casual water

 

[Colin L]

Exactly the same thing happened to one of my playing companions this morning, in roughly the same semi-rough area at the same hole. We couldn't find his ball in fairly short semi-rough until he accidentally trod on it! Once again it had completely embedded itself in its own pitch mark. Can an area of rather soft mud be considered as an Abnormal Ground Condition?

And yet once more, if you didn’t see the ball before it was trodden on, you do not know whether it was embedded or not.

As to soft mud not being casual water, see Decision 25/1
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-25,d25-1

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Exactly the same thing happened to one of my playing companions this morning, in roughly the same semi-rough area at the same hole. We couldn't find his ball in fairly short semi-rough until he accidentally trod on it! Once again it had completely embedded itself in its own pitch mark. Can an area of rather soft mud be considered as an Abnormal Ground Condition?

Del, are you struggling with plain written English. Lots of people have taken the time to answer your question and provide links to the rules but you continue to ignore every answer. It's not a question of keep going until you find one you like and changing it a fraction every post. The ball moved. Penalty. Please accept it and move on

 

[delc]

Del, are you struggling with plain written English. Lots of people have taken the time to answer your question and provide links to the rules but you continue to ignore every answer. It's not a question of keep going until you find one you like and changing it a fraction every post. The ball moved. Penalty. Please accept it and move on

The same player lost a ball in similar circumstances at another hole. We all saw exactly where it went, but despite all four of us searching hard for the full five minutes it couldn't be found. I suspect that it must have embedded itself completely underground again. In this case you could raise water with your foot (casual water), so could say that the ball was lost in an abnormal ground condition as per Rule 25-1c and be entitled to a free drop, but really the two cases are the same in my eyes. What would have happened if the player had found his ball in the AGC by treading on it. Would he still be penalised under rule 18-2?

 

[Colin L]

The same player lost a ball in similar circumstances at another hole. We all saw exactly where it went, but despite all four of us searching hard for the full five minutes it couldn't be found. I suspect that it must have embedded itself completely underground again. In this case you could raise water with your foot (casual water), so could say that the ball was lost in an abnormal ground condition as per Rule 25-1c and be entitled to a free drop, but really the two cases are the same in my eyes.

To be entitled to relief under 25-1c, you would need to be certain that the ball was lost in an area of casual water. If there is visible water over the entire area where the ball could be, you have certainty and can take relief. If water is only visible when you stand on a particular spot, then you cannot be certain that at every place in the area where the ball might be, there would also be visible water when you stand on it and I would not allow relief. In the latter case, you would have to find your ball and see whether it was in casual water at that precise spot.

What would have happened if the player had found his ball in the AGC by treading on it. Would he still be penalised under rule 18-2?

Short term memory a bit like mine? That has already been answered in this thread: you are not penalised if you tread on your ball while searching for it in an abnormal ground condition. It’s the first of the exceptions in Rule 18-2a(ii)

 

[rulefan]

What would have happened if the player had found his ball in the AGC by treading on it. Would he still be penalised under rule 18-2?

Did you not read post #26?

18-2 Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:

• In searching for a ball covered by sand, in the replacement of loose impediments moved in a hazard while finding or identifying a ball, in probing for a ball lying in water in a water hazard or in searching for a ball in an obstruction or an abnormal ground condition - Rule 12-1

12-1d. Searching for Ball Within Obstruction or Abnormal Ground Condition
If a ball lying in or on an obstruction or in an abnormal ground condition is accidentally moved during search, there is no penalty;

 

[woody69]