Flag in / flag out debate

[Orikoru]

I don't get how people think they can accurately perceive a slope with their feet better than they can with their eyes.

Yeah this for me as well. I tried reading the green with my feet back when Aimpoint first became popular, but if the break is subtle enough that I can't see it with my eyes, I sure as hell can't see it with my feet. Maybe I should try it with my shoes off. (I've not done the proper Aimpoint training obviously.)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't get how people think they can accurately perceive a slope with their feet better than they can with their eyes.

That’s what I think…or perhaps should say that I thought and now not so sure. With the flooring now down in our new kitchen/living area I most certainly can feel where the builder was unable to completely level the base on which the flooring was a laid (we decided against screeding the whole area for good reasons).

Very subtle almost imperceptible, but not imperceptible. Whether that very ‘local’ sensitivity translates to slope and hence borrow, I remain unconvinced, but less so than before.

 

[Hobbit]

Why dis a technique that others feel works for them? Imagine how many putts those individuals would miss if they hadn’t found Aimpoint. They might take a little longer assessing their putts but take less putts. Extra 20 secs over 20 putts, assuming the others might be short tap in’s = 6.5 mins. Then take off the time for 3 or 4 putts they sank but wouldn’t if they hadn’t used Aimpoint. That 6.5mins comes down to 4.5mins or less??? Do we really want to argue over 5mins either way?

 

[D-S]

Why dis a technique that others feel works for them? Imagine how many putts those individuals would miss if they hadn’t found Aimpoint. They might take a little longer assessing their putts but take less putts. Extra 20 secs over 20 putts, assuming the others might be short tap in’s = 6.5 mins. Then take off the time for 3 or 4 putts they sank but wouldn’t if they hadn’t used Aimpoint. That 6.5mins comes down to 4.5mins or less??? Do we really want to argue over 5mins either way?

4 people in front of you taking 5 minutes each longer is the difference between a 3 hours 50 and a 4 hours 10 round and that always seems huge.

Not that Aimpoint is the only issue just faffing in general.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

4 people in front of you taking 5 minutes each longer is the difference between a 3 hours 50 and a 4 hours 10 round and that always seems huge.

Not that Aimpoint is the only issue just faffing in general.

Is any reading of a green faffing and slowing down play. Or just aim point?

 

[Hobbit]

4 people in front of you taking 5 minutes each longer is the difference between a 3 hours 50 and a 4 hours 10 round and that always seems huge.

Not that Aimpoint is the only issue just faffing in general.

That’s just over a minute a hole. Hardly worth getting in a sweat over. And 4 players using Aimpoint?? I can’t remember ever being in a group where 3 used it, and probably only a couple of times I’ve been in a group where 2 have used it. This really is a non-topic.

 

[sweaty sock]

If I can see the hole, I putt with the flag out. if I cant see the hole I putt with the flag in.

This is correct.

 

[Neilds]

If aimpoint isn’t slow, why did they need to invent aimpoint express?

 

[D-S]

Is any reading of a green faffing and slowing down play. Or just aim point?

Players stalking putts from all directions can be very time consuming. I think the issue with Aimpoint is that it tends to be done only when it is that particular players turn, other green reading can be done whilst other players are playing.
Of course, I don’t expect players not to read greens but when they take over the recommended 40 seconds, irrespective of their own system, it becomes ‘faffing’.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’ve gone back to ’flag out’ for all putts other than those for which, in the past, I’d have had the flag attended.

I’ve reverted as, keeping it in, I think I had taken to focussing too much on the flagstick and hitting my ball too firm and straight at the flag, neglecting borrow and, to a lesser extent, the weight of a putt. I feel much more comfortable seeing a sward of green uninterrupted by anything other than the hole, and without anything in vision to distract my focus from line and length.

I get the impression that a majority of those I play with have reverted also, and of those who on balance would keep it in, only a small minority are bothered about keeping it in for shortest putts. This may be down to our new flagsticks being very solid and of quite large diameter at green level - increasing likelihood some say of a firm putt bouncing out.

I always declare my wishes for the flag on the 1st green and that tends to prompt all others with me to do the same. In this way we know from the start who is in and who is out unless we are told otherwise, and seem to be able to sort ourselves out to avoid too much hokey-cokey.

Update. Seems like sufficient members didn’t like our new solid and heavy flagsticks…they felt the solidity and diameter of the flagsticks at green level was causing putts to bounce out. And so…out today for Captains Day new flagsticks…Pinseeker Slim Pins. They are very light and slim at green level. No doubt some will now moan when they whip about in a stronger wind. At least if strong wind is forecast we have an alternative.

 

[KenL]

I really like the slim pins. I’m happy to putt with them in if others are happy with that.

 

[Mandofred]

One of my clubs has the skinny flags the other doesn't. I always putt with them in. The same people who don't like to putt with the flag in at the one course with the thinner flags.....still don't like putting with the flag in. Some people just don't like having the flag in. I was playing with a guy on Friday who hit a putt that he swears to God would have gone in if it hadn't hit the flag. It was a good putt, but he didn't seem to like it when I said I wasn't sure since it was going pretty fast. Perception is everything....if you are convinced the flag is better out....then it is for you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

One of my clubs has the skinny flags the other doesn't. I always putt with them in. The same people who don't like to putt with the flag in at the one course with the thinner flags.....still don't like putting with the flag in. Some people just don't like having the flag in. I was playing with a guy on Friday who hit a putt that he swears to God would have gone in if it hadn't hit the flag. It was a good putt, but he didn't seem to like it when I said I wasn't sure since it was going pretty fast. Perception is everything....if you are convinced the flag is better out....then it is for you.

Most members that I play with, and they are many and varied, now generally have flag out except for long putts.

 

[Mandofred]

Most members that I play with, and they are many and varied, now generally have flag out except for long putts.

Reverse all this for me. Again....it's not better or worse to leave it in. If you believe it is one way or another....it works for you.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Don’t like the flag in with any point , all the research seen shows it’s got more chance of going in with it out , not sure why someone would want to putt with the hole size reduced

Do prefer the heavy flags but we moved to the thin ones

 

[rulefan]

all the research seen shows it’s got more chance of going in with it out

No it doesn't. It's about 50/50

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Don’t like the flag in with any point , all the research seen shows it’s got more chance of going in with it out , not sure why someone would want to putt with the hole size reduc
Do prefer the heavy flags but we moved to the thin ones

Makes no difference, plenty of evidence says the complete opposite,.just do what makes you happy

 

[Mandofred]

Don’t like the flag in with any point , all the research seen shows it’s got more chance of going in with it out , not sure why someone would want to putt with the hole size reduced

Do prefer the heavy flags but we moved to the thin ones

ALL the research? Hmmmmm You''ve been looking at different tests than I have. The tests I've seen have it barely better to leave it in. Some tests have it way more one way or another....but those don't make sense.

 

[Pants]

So. Coming back to my original observation, the pros now days seem to prefer the flag out (or attended).

To quote another long running thread - drive for show, putt for dough. At last they have seen sense and come back to my way of thinking

 

[AussieKB]

I try to avoid playing with people who leave the flag in.....because it is slow...first guy putts with flag out then you put it back in for the next and so on.....for 18 holes it just frustrates me, specially when they will not putt out of turn to quicken things up.