Does your club require a minimum number of Acceptable Scores before winning prizes in a Competition.

[IanM]

Thankfully our club doesn’t discriminate against any particular HI, instead we use divisions, prizes for different HIs and find ways to encourage and make things work within our comps.

We have divisions. But to win a pot you have to have put a few cards in. That includes the match play events.

The Competition Committee have just filled the obvious omission in the regs!

 

[Old Skier]

Who wins the medal/comp?
We have divisions for the sweep but just 1 medal winner.

We could have up to 3 Divs with winners in each Div

 

[KenL]

We could have up to 3 Divs with winners in each Div

So no overall winner?

 

[Old Skier]

So no overall winner?

Yep an overall winner in each Div

 

[KenL]

Yep an overall winner in each Div

?‍

 

[Backache]

Yeah, less than one round a month. We have 2 comps a week, every week. We're in South Wales, not Finland, so winter is less of an issue.

If you can't manage 10 comps in a year, you're better off being a nomad.

I'm in Scotland, the course can certainly be shortened between Early Nov and end of March, main stroke play comps are the medals which are monthly.
We have midweek stablefords which are difficult to get to for the working man.
I play a fair bit of social golf usually matchplay.
I probably play more than most and get huge benefit from my membership but no way will most members get in 10 stroke play comps per year.
Anyway I have not noticed low scores being prevalent here.

 

[clubchamp98]

Thats a comment on the winning score, not the chances of winning.

Really ?
If you can shoot 58 your chances of winning are quite good.!

 

[Backsticks]

Really ?
If you can shoot 58 your chances of winning are quite good.!

Yes, really. You must take the probability of shooting that 58 into account to evaluate the chances of winning, not just the fact that you can shoot it.

 

[woofers]

8 handicap is the lowest to win a comp at ours this season, 2 comps a week, 3 if you include seniors and only 2 single figure winners.

Plenty of 20 plus indexes winning getting 24/25 or shots or more.

A positive this year I wouldn't have to beat the course record every time out just to contend like last season , more like every other week ?

Years past I always thought my very best golf was good enough to be in with a shout, no longer the case.

Playing off 3 for information.

OK, thanks.
I guess the other points to take into consideration are:
1. The ratio of players with 20 plus indexes to lower handicappers, single figures etc. It’s not unreasonable to expect, statistically, that the greater proportion of golfers fall into the higher bracket and therefore would provide more winning scores - is it also the reason that the 95% allowance was bought in? The higher handicap group lose more shots than the lower in a handicap competition.
2. The number of rounds in each players record - the very topic that this thread introduced. I believe the WHS is a better system in that it reflects a players current ability when cards are submitted regularly. It can work “both ways” as I have seen at my club. Players who were single figures under the old system and only put in the mandatory 3 cards to protect their vanity single figure status have either remained on the conversion HI and can’t win anything, others have put cards in and gone up to their astonishment (and still can’t win anything, proving the old system had its flaws), whilst others haven’t put cards in to “protect“ their handicap and win the board comp - to not much applause.
At least the proposals at IanM’s club are an attempt to address these issues, the major weaknesses of the WHS in my opinion are the lack of a requirement to submit a required number of cards in a rolling 12 month period and the prevalence of General Play scores.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes, really. You must take the probability of shooting that 58 into account to evaluate the chances of winning, not just the fact that you can shoot it.

I can’t shoot it and no single figure golfer imo can.
But there has been six at my club since WHS and plenty of 60/61/62 net almost every week all from high cappers.

 

[2blue]

I'm in Scotland, the course can certainly be shortened between Early Nov and end of March, main stroke play comps are the medals which are monthly.
We have midweek stablefords which are difficult to get to for the working man.
I play a fair bit of social golf usually matchplay.
I probably play more than most and get huge benefit from my membership but no way will most members get in 10 stroke play comps per year.
Anyway I have not noticed low scores being prevalent here.

Wow that's pretty unbelievable..... I've 33 Q rounds in already & had 64 last year..... some Comps & others General rounds. It seems some Clubs need to offer more opportunities for Competition play.

 

[Backsticks]

I can’t shoot it and no single figure golfer imo can.
But there has been six at my club since WHS and plenty of 60/61/62 net almost every week all from high cappers.

Something wrong with the culture in the club, or the handicap committee, I guess.
Quick tot from an admittedly smallish sample of 14 competition in mine in the last 3 months.
Categories are up to 12, 13-18, and 19+.

4 comps won, 28%, by C1s who are 27 % of entrants.
5 comps won, 36%, by C2s who are 30% of entrants.
5 comps won, 36%, by C3s who are 43% of entrants.

Quite even, though it does suggest higher handicappers finding it harder to win. Suggests fairness.

No scores like you are experiencing. Lowest win was a 63 net (yes, by a 32 hc, but overall they are the losers). All other winners in the range 65-68.

 

[RRidges]

How is it skewed, and to which groups please?

The handicap system has always been skewed imo.
It's far easier for an improving high/highish handicapper to shoot a significant number of shots below their handicap than it has for a low handicapper. I've been one of those who has done it - a couple of times from mid-teens to nearly mid-high single-figures.
It's the main reason why competitions should be divided into sections/divisions/categories, so the likelihood of it happening is equalised/isolated.

 

[clubchamp98]

Something wrong with the culture in the club, or the handicap committee, I guess.
Quick tot from an admittedly smallish sample of 14 competition in mine in the last 3 months.
Categories are up to 12, 13-18, and 19+.

4 comps won, 28%, by C1s who are 27 % of entrants.
5 comps won, 36%, by C2s who are 30% of entrants.
5 comps won, 36%, by C3s who are 43% of entrants.

Quite even, though it does suggest higher handicappers finding it harder to win. Suggests fairness.

No scores like you are experiencing. Lowest win was a 63 net (yes, by a 32 hc, but overall they are the losers). All other winners in the range 65-68.

You can’t blame the handicap comittiee for a system that allows golfers to basically set their own handicaps by abusing it.
I accept your club hasn’t got a problem , but a lot have.
I am very competitive but am going out knowing I havnt got a cats chance in hell of winning.
That’s not good.
It’s putting an awful lot of players off the comps visible by the amount of spaces on the comp sheet.

 

[duncan mackie]

We are coming under increasing pressure from our members who are getting concerned that competitions , both team games and individual games are being won by large margins. Whether this is , or is not, the result of WHS is irrelevant to my question. i am not trying to fix, criticise or change WHS. It is what it is.

We already have in our Open ToC a condition that entrants must have submitted 3 scores in the previous 12 months. For our own Club Competitions, we are considering all members must have submitted 6 Acceptable Scores in the previous 12 months. They could be either General Play or Competition Scores as our members do not submit many GP cards. We have at least three comps each week.

(Yorkshire Golf Union County Members Meets ToC includes that each entrants has submitted 6 Acceptable Scores for Handicap of 18 holes in the previous 12 months and of which 3 must in a competition.)

i am very interested in how many clubs are running competitions with specific conditions around winners ( or 2nd, 3rd places) having to have entered a set number of Acceptable Scores in a set period prior to that particular competition.

Late response but I hope some of this is constructive.

1. I sense bringing post that you believe that your additional qualification element would somehow magically make a dramatic change to some people's handicaps? I am afraid that 3 more handicap lines simply aren't going to do this. Anyone deliberately manipulating their handicap (however) will not have any issues with another 3 scores (or 6 etc).
2. All of the club's that I have been on the committee of have had a requirement for 3 competition rounds at the club within the previous 12 month period for their Trophy/Board events. When CONGU introduced (c) status handicaps debates occurred over whether this was still required but people quickly remembered that the reason for the rule was to reflect some element of active membership at the club and nothing to do with any qualitative handicap assessment.
3. The more specific element of team comps, Inc BB, brings many other elements into play. Some players are dramatically better when the world isn't hanging on their every stroke; they relax, can get encouragement and advice from partners etc The biggest benefits are frequently seen to be around the 18 - 24 handicap players especially if they are teamed up with a solid lower handicap player.
4. When the event is held in the year relative to clubs Q seasons, and associated course conditions, can have a massive impact on the likely winners profiles (and that's assuming they all have theoretically completely solid handicaps). Whilst conditions currently are extreme I've certainly played in similar conditions for shorter periods in recent years. You cannot get away from the fact that certain conditions on certain courses suit certain players. In an open event, even if players handicaps reflect form at their primary course this may not reflect their capability at the open venue.
5. Someone posted earlier about access to comps; this is a much bigger issue than many seem to appreciate and crosses over with no 4. Personally I play around 2 games a week. Through the summer this will normally be filled with league matches, friendly matches and the odd open where we are supporting clubs we play fixtures against. I am a 5 day member and the club has 2 midweek comps a month, which for the last couple of years have been over full (although the day before spaces appear - to late for me). We play comps all year and there's no issues getting in during the Autumn/Winter/early Spring period so, right now, relative to those playing loads of comps in easy (for them) conditions, I definitiely have a stronger handicap. Come Nov they won't stand a chance! Putting in cards would seem to be a theoretical solution for my situation - except I don't play any social golf at all; I'm not avoiding putting in scores but the system won't take my B&B matchplay scores (thanks to CONGU). Ignoring the personal aspects these issues are reflected everywhere because of the wide range of conditions across the year for many UK courses that handicap ratings simply can't accommodate.

Long post, but you need to be absolutely clear as to what you are trying to achieve, and then absolutely clear as to whether you are going to do so with any proposed steps. Good luck

 

[NearHull]

Late response but I hope some of this is constructive.

1. I sense bringing post that you believe that your additional qualification element would somehow magically make a dramatic change to some people's handicaps? I am afraid that 3 more handicap lines simply aren't going to do this. Anyone deliberately manipulating their handicap (however) will not have any issues with another 3 scores (or 6 etc).
2. All of the club's that I have been on the committee of have had a requirement for 3 competition rounds at the club within the previous 12 month period for their Trophy/Board events. When CONGU introduced (c) status handicaps debates occurred over whether this was still required but people quickly remembered that the reason for the rule was to reflect some element of active membership at the club and nothing to do with any qualitative handicap assessment.
3. The more specific element of team comps, Inc BB, brings many other elements into play. Some players are dramatically better when the world isn't hanging on their every stroke; they relax, can get encouragement and advice from partners etc The biggest benefits are frequently seen to be around the 18 - 24 handicap players especially if they are teamed up with a solid lower handicap player.
4. When the event is held in the year relative to clubs Q seasons, and associated course conditions, can have a massive impact on the likely winners profiles (and that's assuming they all have theoretically completely solid handicaps). Whilst conditions currently are extreme I've certainly played in similar conditions for shorter periods in recent years. You cannot get away from the fact that certain conditions on certain courses suit certain players. In an open event, even if players handicaps reflect form at their primary course this may not reflect their capability at the open venue.
5. Someone posted earlier about access to comps; this is a much bigger issue than many seem to appreciate and crosses over with no 4. Personally I play around 2 games a week. Through the summer this will normally be filled with league matches, friendly matches and the odd open where we are supporting clubs we play fixtures against. I am a 5 day member and the club has 2 midweek comps a month, which for the last couple of years have been over full (although the day before spaces appear - to late for me). We play comps all year and there's no issues getting in during the Autumn/Winter/early Spring period so, right now, relative to those playing loads of comps in easy (for them) conditions, I definitiely have a stronger handicap. Come Nov they won't stand a chance! Putting in cards would seem to be a theoretical solution for my situation - except I don't play any social golf at all; I'm not avoiding putting in scores but the system won't take my B&B matchplay scores (thanks to CONGU). Ignoring the personal aspects these issues are reflected everywhere because of the wide range of conditions across the year for many UK courses that handicap ratings simply can't accommodate.

Long post, but you need to be absolutely clear as to what you are trying to achieve, and then absolutely clear as to whether you are going to do so with any proposed steps. Good luck

Thank you for your considered post and taking the time to submit it. I know that my proposal will not solve the issues that seem to have come from the introduction of WHS but this is my rationale. The interpretation of ‘current’ form is, of course, open to criticism.

The introduction of WHS removed the requirement for members to maintain a ‘Competition’ Handicap. A Competition Handicap was achieved under the ’old CONGU’ system by submitting three Acceptable Scores each year before being eligible to enter competitions. The WHS is designed to award a handicap that reflect a player’s current form and ability. If a member doesn’t submit Acceptable Scores regularly, then the awarded handicap becomes less relevant as time goes by and the lack of recent scores in a player’s records may be considered to be ‘handicap manipulation’ by default, if not by intention.
The WHS system works well enough for individual competitions, but it is becoming very noticeable that some members, who compete mainly in team competitions, have not submitted Acceptable Scores regularly and their handicaps are becoming increasingly less relevant in reflecting their current form and ability. Recent winning team scores are regularly viewed as ‘Exceptional’. ‘Exceptional’ is becoming the norm.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Thank you for your considered post and taking the time to submit it. I know that my proposal will not solve the issues that seem to have come from the introduction of WHS but this is my rationale. The interpretation of ‘current’ form is, of course, open to criticism.

The introduction of WHS removed the requirement for members to maintain a ‘Competition’ Handicap. A Competition Handicap was achieved under the ’old CONGU’ system by submitting three Acceptable Scores each year before being eligible to enter competitions. The WHS is designed to award a handicap that reflect a player’s current form and ability. If a member doesn’t submit Acceptable Scores regularly, then the awarded handicap becomes less relevant as time goes by and the lack of recent scores in a player’s records may be considered to be ‘handicap manipulation’ by default, if not by intention.
The WHS system works well enough for individual competitions, but it is becoming very noticeable that some members, who compete mainly in team competitions, have not submitted Acceptable Scores regularly and their handicaps are becoming increasingly less relevant in reflecting their current form and ability. Recent winning team scores are regularly viewed as ‘Exceptional’. ‘Exceptional’ is becoming the norm.

Current form is a good question, what does it mean for a handicap golfer?

I'll use myself as en example. Played a 36 hole comp on Wed's, scoring 74 & 82 off a HI of 2.4.

Does that give any indication of current form?

Us handicap golfers, I believe don't know what's going to happen from one round to another so a handicap based on 'current form' doesn't meant much.

 

[rulefan]

Current form is a good question, what does it mean for a handicap golfer?

I'll use myself as en example. Played a 36 hole comp on Wed's, scoring 74 & 82 off a HI of 2.4.

Does that give any indication of current form?

Us handicap golfers, I believe don't know what's going to happen from one round to another so a handicap based on 'current form' doesn't meant much.

That's why 2 scores are not considered a reliable indication of current form.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

That's why 2 scores are not considered a reliable indication of current form.

Neither is 8 from 20.

 

[2blue]

That's why 2 scores are not considered a reliable indication of current form.

Neither is 8 from 20.

So in your opinion...... What is??