CR-Par

[rulefan]

Par has always been the model score of another player.

Not convinced about that. My experience has been that CSS was the measure. It had the added value that players knew exactly what their new handicap would be.
I can hear the echoes now.
Sadly - "That's cost another point one" or joyfully - "That's got me point three back"

Of course par is useful in comparing the relative progress of the pros an an individual competition.

 

[Voyager EMH]

CR-Par is being introduced to bring 36 points towards "playing to handicap". Or so I've been told.

The next adjustment to be made will have to address the fact that 95% means some players are scoring stableford points according to their CH (single figure handicaps) and others are scoring stableford points according to a handicap that is one or two shots below their CH.

This adjustment will have to be something like, (Stableford points) + (CH - PH)
But what would this entity be called?

EDIT: After sleeping on it, I've come up with a name; Stableford points adjusted to course handicap.

It will be known as SPATCH.

So remember to spatch your competition stableford points to give you an idea of whether you played to your handicap after CR-Par comes in.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Par has always been the model score of another player. So giving and receiving shots has always been in relation to another player, whether they’re imaginary against the course or real against an opponent makes no difference.

Agreed.
But the previous system lent itself well to stableford thinking during a round. Your handicap adjustment totally depended on what your handicap was on the day.
Now it doesn't.
But many still have the remnants of the old system affecting the way they think during a round.
The new system of playing against the course is "gross score based" not "handicap based" as it was before.
"I get 12 shots" no longer relates to your play against the course - but many minds still want it to, because it did before.

 

[Swango1980]

Voyager EMH

You (and I) may be fighting a losing battle but the problem is that those who support CR-Par, especially the 'authorities', are trying to make the new system look like the old system. Slope, Score Differentials and averaging are brand new concepts and have changed the fundamentals of Congu UHS completely.
WHS is a new system not a 'tarted-up' old system.

What do you mean, like the old system? The old system didn't use SSS-Par.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Oh interesting!

So in comps at my place now the ladies wont still gain 2 shots on their handicaps just because they're playing against the men, despite still playing off the reds?

It will already be in the course handicap calculations.

 

[rulefan]

What do you mean, like the old system? The old system didn't use SSS-Par.

I was describing how WHS is different to UHS. CR-Par is something else that would add to the differences

 

[nickjdavis]

at an England Golf presentation to local clubs Handicap Committee's earlier this evening, the specific question was asked...Is England Golf planning to introduce CR-Par?

The answer.....a categorical.....NO.

We were told that there are some very high level discussions going on, but there is no plan to introduce it in the foreseeable future.

 

[D-S]

at an England Golf presentation to local clubs Handicap Committee's earlier this evening, the specific question was asked...Is England Golf planning to introduce CR-Par?

The answer.....a categorical.....NO.

We were told that there are some very high level discussions going on, but there is no plan to introduce it in the foreseeable future.

That is in direct contradiction as to what was said by EG Board Members at the Regional Delegates meeting and also regional authorities advice.

 

[nickjdavis]

That is in direct contradiction as to what was said by EG Board Members at the Regional Delegates meeting and also regional authorities advice.

Maybe the guys doing the presentation today are being a bit more discrete than the Board Members.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Maybe the guys doing the presentation today are being a bit more discrete than the Board Members.

Or perhaps a third party who was not at any meetings has advised them to say that they are unaware of changes to the guidance even though they heard it discussed at those meetings.

 

[D-S]

Apparently EG have set April next year as the implementation date. Information will be sent out to clubs in the coming months and Counties/Handicap Advisors will have to do club education. Studies are being done to see if some funding for boards might be made available.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Apparently EG have set April next year as the implementation date. Information will be sent out to clubs in the coming months and Counties/Handicap Advisors will have to do club education. Studies are being done to see if some funding for boards might be made available.

That should be a bundle of laughs.

 

[rulefan]

Apparently EG have set April next year as the implementation date. Information will be sent out to clubs in the coming months and Counties/Handicap Advisors will have to do club education. Studies are being done to see if some funding for boards might be made available.

Well our Seniors will be pleased, most will 'get' shots as they are the only ones who play comps off the forward tees. CR = Par for our back tees.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

CR-Par is being introduced to bring 36 points towards "playing to handicap". Or so I've been told.

The next adjustment to be made will have to address the fact that 95% means some players are scoring stableford points according to their CH (single figure handicaps) and others are scoring stableford points according to a handicap that is one or two shots below their CH.

This adjustment will have to be something like, (Stableford points) + (CH - PH)
But what would this entity be called?

EDIT: After sleeping on it, I've come up with a name; Stableford points adjusted to course handicap.

It will be known as SPATCH.

So remember to spatch your competition stableford points to give you an idea of whether you played to your handicap after CR-Par comes in.

Our Yellow tees are CR 70/Par 72. In context of a stableford WHS qualifying round I find that a bit difficult as 36pts should feel like a decent outcome. But in WHS context and given my current course handicap of 9, its a gross ‘two over’ that doesn’t feel decent. Just score 38pts then, I tell myself, but off our Yellows I find that to be pretty much no easier than off the Whites.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Well our Seniors will be pleased, most will 'get' shots as they are the only ones who play comps off the forward tees. CR = Par for our back tees.

It is going to really annoy many of our members.
Add a shot for white tees and subtract a shot for yellow tees. (Par 70 - white 70.8/132 and yellow 69.1/127)

And its not going to make any difference to Score Differentials, outcomes of comps or handicap adjustments.

Completely unnecessary.

 

[D-S]

It is going to really annoy many of our members.
Add a shot for white tees and subtract a shot for yellow tees. (Par 70 - white 70.8/132 and yellow 69.1/127)

And its not going to make any difference to Score Differentials, outcomes of comps or handicap adjustments.

Completely unnecessary.

It'll be exactly the same for your Seniors as now.

"What tees are we playing off today? Whites? Ok." Wander off to the adjacent sign board, look at their index point "Oh, I get 14 off the whites".

No adding or subtracting.

For the younger people and a lot of Seniors it will be a cursory check of the App.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Just had a look at the result of last Saturday's stableford comp.
With +(CR-Par) being +0.8, most scores will be one more stableford point. A few will be the same.
I checked to make sure that I used my extra shot and did not blob that hole. So my 31points becomes 32 points.
I finished equal 35th place out of 111 entrants.
Most likely that with (CR-Par) there would be no change to this outcome. Even if there were a slight change - I see no need for it to be applied.
And of course, my score differential would not change and any change to my HI would be the same as if there were no CR-Par applied to course handicaps.
Completely unnecessary.

It'll be exactly the same for your Seniors as now.

"What tees are we playing off today? Whites? Ok." Wander off to the adjacent sign board, look at their index point "Oh, I get 14 off the whites".

No adding or subtracting.

For the younger people and a lot of Seniors it will be a cursory check of the App.

Er, no.
Most have the same course handicap off both tees as the difference between 127 and 132 is not very much.
Most have a good understanding of being on the limit of one band which gives them a different handicap off another set of tees.

Seniors generally have much better arithmetic skills and better understanding of the calculations than the younger players who have to rely on technology.

 

[D-S]

Just had a look at the result of last Saturday's stableford comp.
With +(CR-Par) being +0.8, most scores will be one more stableford point. A few will be the same.
I checked to make sure that I used my extra shot and did not blob that hole. So my 31points becomes 32 points.
I finished equal 35th place out of 111 entrants.
Most likely that with (CR-Par) there would be no change to this outcome. Even if there were a slight change - I see no need for it to be applied.
And of course, my score differential would not change and any change to my HI would be the same as if there were no CR-Par applied to course handicaps.
Completely unnecessary.


Er, no.
Most have the same course handicap off both tees as the difference between 127 and 132 is not very much.
Most have a good understanding of being on the limit of one band which gives them a different handicap off another set of tees.

Seniors generally have much better arithmetic skills and better understanding of the calculations than the younger players who have to rely on technology.

That is your opinion and experience and you are entitled to it - it does not agree with my opinion nor my experience.

 

[Voyager EMH]

CR-Par appeals to those players who wish to perceive that they "get more shots" on a course where CR is above par and "get fewer shots" on a course with CR that is below par.
They are free to have this perception.
It is my view that this perception will wane over the next few years as people get more accustomed to the new system.

Many are already fully-adjusted to the new system and I can foresee many more following suit over the next few years.
Introducing CR-Par will lengthen that period of perception change.

In WHS you do not "get shots on a course".

You used to in the old system, because you returned a net score for handicap adjustment.

Now you return a gross score for handicap adjustment. This is the change that many are struggling to change their golf-score-perception to.
So the "getting of shots", more or fewer, has no relevance in this process - other than the marginal hole where net double bogey limit applies.

In a competition, moving everyone's handicap up a bit, or down a bit, by the same amount is unnecessary.
This competition could be a formal club competition with over 100 entrants or 4 mates going out for a friendly game.

 

[D-S]

CR-Par appeals to those players who wish to perceive that they "get more shots" on a course where CR is above par and "get fewer shots" on a course with CR that is below par.
They are free to have this perception.
It is my view that this perception will wane over the next few years as people get more accustomed to the new system.

Many are already fully-adjusted to the new system and I can foresee many more following suit over the next few years.
Introducing CR-Par will lengthen that period of perception change.

In WHS you do not "get shots on a course".

You used to in the old system, because you returned a net score for handicap adjustment.

Now you return a gross score for handicap adjustment. This is the change that many are struggling to change their golf-score-perception to.
So the "getting of shots", more or fewer, has no relevance in this process - other than the marginal hole where net double bogey limit applies.

In a competition, moving everyone's handicap up a bit, or down a bit, by the same amount is unnecessary.
This competition could be a formal club competition with over 100 entrants or 4 mates going out for a friendly game.

All of this may or may not be true but the key message is that all the Handicapping Authorities with the exception of CONGU introduced CR-Par when WHS was introduced as they must have felt that this was a good thing and the best way forward. CONGU did not want to make this transition as part of a big change on 1/11/2020.
After two and a half years of WHS implementation and considered reflection, CONGU have now decided that CR-Par is a sensible or better way to calculate course handicap, even if this means more education and cost to clubs - so they clearly now think it is worth doing.
So whatever you believe that are the downsides, the upsides are considered greater by all those experts in authority.