CR-Par

[Region3]

There are things in life that are carefully engineered to wind you up.

In my case - and I know this is a ‘me’ thing and no-one else’s fault - these things include (but not limited to)…..

Calling a Stableford a Stapleford.
Banging muddy shoes together next to a car in the middle of the car park.
Hitting a tree when you have a 20’ gap and claiming bad luck.
Golfers saying they played to handicap with their 36 points from our (old system) par 72 sss 70 yellow tees.

I will be able to cross one of these off my list soon

 

[Voyager EMH]

When it comes in, I think the, "White-tee-add-a-shot, yellow-tee-take-a-shot-off" will wind up just as many as it pleases at my club, maybe more. We will have to wait and see.

Many might come to the opinion that having a CH between the two that doesn't change - "like it used to be before WHS" - would suit them better.

It will neither wind me up nor please me.

Because it doesn't really change anything.

 

[Voyager EMH]

If you knew what it is you don't know you wouldn't know nothing.

...I don't know about that...

 

[Alan Clifford]

Are there any other ramifications that this rule change might have? Will it mess with ongoing eclectic? Does it remove the need for course adjustment shots? Anything else?

If you have a bit of a meltdown on a hole, a net double bogey under one calculation can be either a triple or a single, under the other. This effects the differential and hence the handicap index calculation.

 

[Region3]

If you have a bit of a meltdown on a hole, a net double bogey under one calculation can be either a triple or a single, under the other. This affects the differential and hence the handicap index calculation.

Unless I’m daft and missing something, the difference in calculation is never going to make a 2 shot difference on one hole, and it’ll only make a one shot difference on a few holes at most.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Unless I’m daft and missing something, the difference in calculation is never going to make a 2 shot difference on one hole, and it’ll only make a one shot difference on a few holes at most.

Why did you think it would make a two shot difference?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Some of those at my club who rail against 95%, because "it means I lose a shot" ain't gonna be happy when they get told they'll be losing another shot when they play from the yellows.

They might still play their rollups with 100% CH with no CR-Par, "So that we get our full handicap".

 

[Region3]

Why did you think it would make a two shot difference?

Because you said a nett double could be a single under one calculation and a triple under the other.
Like I said, I probably misunderstood.

 

[apj0524]

Our M&H Team have dug into this as a change this mid year wold potentially cause chaos, our County Handicap Contact advise

An update was given at the SW members meeting last week.

The CR-par is being discussed but nothing has been decided yet. I have a meeting at Woodhall next week where we will be looking at possible changes for 2024. It would make things much clearer if CR-Par is used. Playing to handicap 36 points.

Info from XXXXXXX - Handicapping Manager
“We’re awaiting confirmation from the R&A whether CR minus PAR will be a discretionary item (expected April), if we chose to go down this route (which the other home nations have already committed to), there will be some implications. We will keep counties posted of where we get to regarding a board decision.”

In my mind its coming in 2024 but talk about sit on the fence " CR minus PAR will be a discretionary item "

 

[Voyager EMH]

Is there an explanation of what "discretionary item" means in practice?

CR-Par leading to, 36 points=playing to handicap, is a matter of a perception resulting from a misconception.

"I get 8 shots on this course" and "I get 6 shots on this course" is a misconception.
You don't get any shots when playing against the course.
Your gross score is used for handicap adjustment - your net score is not calculated.
You are not "playing off a handicap" in this process.

You get shots only when playing with and against others. Handicaps on a day and on a course are relevant to each other.
Moving all handicaps up a bit or down a bit by the same amount is unnecessary.

It will help everyone to adjust and adapt to the new system if CR-Par is not introduced.

I feel the need to say yet again that I am fully aware that mine is a minority view. This does not mean that I am wrong to have that view or that I should not be allowed to state it.

Many of the members at my club are about halfway through the adjustment period of 4-6 years that I think it will take to adjust perceptions to the new system.
Telling them that they must add one shot to their course handicaps when playing off the white tees, but subtract one shot from their course handicaps when playing from the yellow tees, is going to greatly irritate them and prolong the period of adapting to the new system.

 

[doublebogey7]

Is there an explanation of what "discretionary item" means in practice?

CR-Par leading to, 36 points=playing to handicap, is a matter of a perception resulting from a misconception.

"I get 8 shots on this course" and "I get 6 shots on this course" is a misconception.
You don't get any shots when playing against the course.
Your gross score is used for handicap adjustment - your net score is not calculated.
You are not "playing off a handicap" in this process.

You get shots only when playing with and against others. Handicaps on a day and on a course are relevant to each other.
Moving all handicaps up a bit or down a bit by the same amount is unnecessary.

It will help everyone to adjust and adapt to the new system if CR-Par is not introduced.

I feel the need to say yet again that I am fully aware that mine is a minority view. This does not mean that I am wrong to have that view or that I should not be allowed to state it.

Many of the members at my club are about halfway through the adjustment period of 4-6 years that I think it will take to adjust perceptions to the new system.
Telling them that they must add one shot to their course handicaps when playing off the white tees, but subtract one shot from their course handicaps when playing from the yellow tees, is going to greatly irritate them and prolong the period of adapting to the new system.

They will not need to to calculate their CH for themselves as the adjustment will be made before the CH is calculated and will be included on Slope Boards, ISV's and apps. Indeed when playing in mixed tee events there will be no need for the "Courtesy" shot calculation. So less maths needed for players not more.

Edit: Having given it a bit more thought, the "courtesy" shot calculation will need to be done for Medal Play, but not Stableford, Matchplay or Bar/bogey play.

 

[Bdill93]

They will not need to to calculate their CH for themselves as the adjustment will be made before the CH is calculated and will be included on Slope Boards, ISV's and apps. Indeed when playing in mixed tee events there will be no need for the "Courtesy" shot calculation. So less maths needed for players not more.

Oh interesting!

So in comps at my place now the ladies wont still gain 2 shots on their handicaps just because they're playing against the men, despite still playing off the reds?

 

[IanMcC]

They will not need to to calculate their CH for themselves as the adjustment will be made before the CH is calculated and will be included on Slope Boards, ISV's and apps. Indeed when playing in mixed tee events there will be no need for the "Courtesy" shot calculation. So less maths needed for players not more.

Im not sure, but would the dual tee allowance not still have to be given for a Mixed Medal event? The Stableford Comp formula does include CR-Par, for sure, and that would be sorted, but for a Strokeplay Medal event the allowance is purely the difference in Course Ratings. Or is this taken care of once the HI to CH conversion boards are altered? I am easily confused, clearly.

 

[D-S]

Our M&H Team have dug into this as a change this mid year wold potentially cause chaos, our County Handicap Contact advise

An update was given at the SW members meeting last week.

The CR-par is being discussed but nothing has been decided yet. I have a meeting at Woodhall next week where we will be looking at possible changes for 2024. It would make things much clearer if CR-Par is used. Playing to handicap 36 points.

Info from XXXXXXX - Handicapping Manager
“We’re awaiting confirmation from the R&A whether CR minus PAR will be a discretionary item (expected April), if we chose to go down this route (which the other home nations have already committed to), there will be some implications. We will keep counties posted of where we get to regarding a board decision.”

In my mind its coming in 2024 but talk about sit on the fence " CR minus PAR will be a discretionary item "

As the other Home Nations are ‘committed to this change’ it would be beyond surprising that England Golf would be the only authority in the world to not have CR-Par. This has been under discussion for quite a while at EG and CONGU, with EG members in favour.
The major sticking point is the grief of changing all the boards (just imagine if you had been recently rerated and have just had to change your boards, then you get this). I assume the best time to implement this change (and due to the signage it can’t be overnight) would be this winter with maybe kick off at the start off 2024 season. This would allow enough time for clubs and players to get their heads round it with suitable communication.
At the few outstanding WHS HC workshops in certain regions, this is now going to be included.

 

[D-S]

Oh interesting!

So in comps at my place now the ladies wont still gain 2 shots on their handicaps just because they're playing against the men, despite still playing off the reds?

Obviously it depends on the CR and slope difference between the women’s and men’s courses but this change will not have any impact on the competitive balance.

 

[Bdill93]

Obviously it depends on the CR and slope difference between the women’s and men’s courses but this change will not have any impact on the competitive balance.

No I wasnt thinking it would!

The ladies don't tend to be the ones who win our comps anyway so I've no issue with the current set up, although saying that - twice I've been beaten by a lady on countback to come second One day ill get a win!

 

[D-S]

No I wasnt thinking it would!

The ladies don't tend to be the ones who win our comps anyway so I've no issue with the current set up, although saying that - twice I've been beaten by a lady on countback to come second One day ill get a win!

You could always identify yourself as a “player off the reds” but that of course is another issue entirely and not for this forum!

 

[LincolnShep]

Does someone on the EG board have shares in the company that makes the signs?

 

[D-S]

Does someone on the EG board have shares in the company that makes the signs?

I guess it would make sense for clubs to have the facility for relatively cheap changes to the signs, such as a self adhesive sheet that can be put over the existing page because courses will be rerated every 10 years and if there is a small change to slope or CR then all the numbers need to change.

 

[doublebogey7]

Im not sure, but would the dual tee allowance not still have to be given for a Mixed Medal event? The Stableford Comp formula does include CR-Par, for sure, and that would be sorted, but for a Strokeplay Medal event the allowance is purely the difference in Course Ratings. Or is this taken care of once the HI to CH conversion boards are altered? I am easily confused, clearly.

Yes, having given it a bit more thought I think you are right, there would need to be a recalculation for mixed medal play only, not for stablefords, matchplay or Par/bogey.