CR-Par

doublebogey7

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Oh interesting!

So in comps at my place now the ladies wont still gain 2 shots on their handicaps just because they're playing against the men, despite still playing off the reds?

Yes it will but it will already be incorparated into the CH calculation. Having given it more thought though for medal play though from mixed tee's you will appear to gain those two shots.
 

Voyager EMH

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They will not need to to calculate their CH for themselves as the adjustment will be made before the CH is calculated and will be included on Slope Boards, ISV's and apps. Indeed when playing in mixed tee events there will be no need for the "Courtesy" shot calculation. So less maths needed for players not more.

Edit: Having given it a bit more thought, the "courtesy" shot calculation will need to be done for Medal Play, but not Stableford, Matchplay or Bar/bogey play.
Most of the players I am talking about know very little about the calculation of course handicap now and will have the same approach after CR-Par is introduced.
I was thinking more about their approach to social golf not club comps, as that is what the vast majority of their golf is.
Some have noticed that sometimes they have the same handicap off both tees, then their handicap varies slightly and they have a different handicap from one tee to the other.
This they find very confusing.
They do not think about or engage with the arithmetic very much.
There are a few who have a concept of, "the bigger the slope rating, the more shots I get" but as I said in previous posts, this is an incomplete view of the system, not an understanding of it.
Introducing CR-Par will be an additional complication that will disincline them even further from engaging with the arithmetic and delay gaining a greater understanding of the system.
 

D-S

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Most of the players I am talking about know very little about the calculation of course handicap now and will have the same approach after CR-Par is introduced.
I was thinking more about their approach to social golf not club comps, as that is what the vast majority of their golf is.
Some have noticed that sometimes they have the same handicap off both tees, then their handicap varies slightly and they have a different handicap from one tee to the other.
This they find very confusing.
They do not think about or engage with the arithmetic very much.
There are a few who have a concept of, "the bigger the slope rating, the more shots I get" but as I said in previous posts, this is an incomplete view of the system, not an understanding of it.
Introducing CR-Par will be an additional complication that will disincline them even further from engaging with the arithmetic and delay gaining a greater understanding of the system.
Those that have not engaged at all so far will not engage in future - no reason to believe that people who have liitle knowledge afte 2 and a half years will suddenly be aware in 2 or 3 more years. This change will go a long way to dispel the ‘I played a course that‘s much harder than ours but their slope is lower‘ confusion.
Players already now understand that they have to check their CH at different courses, it will now ( or whenever this comes in) have a little more meaning.
 

Voyager EMH

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Those that have not engaged at all so far will not engage in future - no reason to believe that people who have liitle knowledge afte 2 and a half years will suddenly be aware in 2 or 3 more years. This change will go a long way to dispel the ‘I played a course that‘s much harder than ours but their slope is lower‘ confusion.
Players already now understand that they have to check their CH at different courses, it will now ( or whenever this comes in) have a little more meaning.
I agree with what you say here apart from the last bit, "a little more meaning."
I think CR-Par gives no more and no less meaning.
Course handicap matters very little (in Australia there isn't one) since no one is playing off a handicap or getting shots when the play against the course - submitting a score.
Playing handicaps is what we play off when playing with and against each other - moving them all up a bit or down a bit by the same amount is unnecessary.
Your stableford score is not your golf score.
 

D-S

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I agree with what you say here apart from the last bit, "a little more meaning."
I think CR-Par gives no more and no less meaning.
Course handicap matters very little (in Australia there isn't one) since no one is playing off a handicap or getting shots when the play against the course - submitting a score.
Playing handicaps is what we play off when playing with and against each other - moving them all up a bit or down a bit by the same amount is unnecessary.
Your stableford score is not your golf score.
Again, whether your view is correct or not, it is certainly not shared by many (including all those on here who quote Stableford scores all the time) and this change will help the many not the few - you don’t need this change and it will make little or no difference to you but it will to others, so no point in tilting at windmills.
 

sjw

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I'm a little bit confused with this. I think I understand it for a scratch golfer - if he/she plays a par 72 course in 72 shots, it appears they've played to their handicap, but if the course rating is 69, then they're actually 3 over their handicap. This makes sense to me.

What I don't understand is this: CR-par affects all golfers the same amount. At the aforementioned course, a bogey player will have 3 shots taken off as well. However, we know that the course might have a greater relative difficulty for a bogey player than a scratch player, and that is what slope represents. Slope is calculated from CR and bogey rating, and is used to create the current course handicap. With the proposed system, it seems to me that CR is taken into account twice.

This is one of those things where I get so close to understanding it and then I lose track of the example I'm trying to form in my head, and get confused again.
 

Voyager EMH

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Again, whether your view is correct or not, it is certainly not shared by many (including all those on here who quote Stableford scores all the time) and this change will help the many not the few - you don’t need this change and it will make little or no difference to you but it will to others, so no point in tilting at windmills.
It will not help anyone.
It will be an unnecessary change.
I really do not need to told that I have a minority view, I have stated repeatedly that I am aware of that, no point tilting at this windmill.
 

doublebogey7

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Most of the players I am talking about know very little about the calculation of course handicap now and will have the same approach after CR-Par is introduced.
I was thinking more about their approach to social golf not club comps, as that is what the vast majority of their golf is.
Some have noticed that sometimes they have the same handicap off both tees, then their handicap varies slightly and they have a different handicap from one tee to the other.
This they find very confusing.

They do not think about or engage with the arithmetic very much.
There are a few who have a concept of, "the bigger the slope rating, the more shots I get" but as I said in previous posts, this is an incomplete view of the system, not an understanding of it.
Introducing CR-Par will be an additional complication that will disincline them even further from engaging with the arithmetic and delay gaining a greater understanding of the system.

I am surprised you find that, in any dfiscussion I have with players around the different tees the vast majority find it confusing that they get the same number of shots on the longer course as they do on the shorter course (in most cases). The change may help players to understand this aspect of WHS.

I agree very few players engage in the arithmatic of it. If that was ever going to happen it would have been from the outset of WHS not after it has bedded in, so I see this change being neither a positive or negative in that regard.
 

backwoodsman

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Forgive me for being dim in relation to this topic but a couple of points
CR-Par leading to, 36 points=playing to handicap, is a matter of a perception resulting from a misconception.

"I get 8 shots on this course" and "I get 6 shots on this course" is a misconception.
You don't get any shots when playing against the course.
Your gross score is used for handicap adjustment - your net score is not calculated.
You are not "playing off a handicap" in this process.
True, in a technical sense.
But don't most players wants to know how they fared against their handicap on the course. Or is that just me? Five under handicap will please me no end, even if it is a pretty cr*p score in absolute terms.
Telling them that they must add one shot to their course handicaps when playing off the white tees, but subtract one shot from their course handicaps when playing from the yellow tees, is going to greatly irritate them and prolong the period of adapting to the new system.
Essentially, isn't this what happens already though? Your course handicap is only what you're told? Handicap index 'X': Course 1 white tees play off 'Y', yellow tees play off 'Z', Course 2 white tees, play off 'A', yellow tees, play off 'B'.
 

Voyager EMH

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I'm a little bit confused with this. I think I understand it for a scratch golfer - if he/she plays a par 72 course in 72 shots, it appears they've played to their handicap, but if the course rating is 69, then they're actually 3 over their handicap. This makes sense to me.

What I don't understand is this: CR-par affects all golfers the same amount. At the aforementioned course, a bogey player will have 3 shots taken off as well. However, we know that the course might have a greater relative difficulty for a bogey player than a scratch player, and that is what slope represents. Slope is calculated from CR and bogey rating, and is used to create the current course handicap. With the proposed system, it seems to me that CR is taken into account twice.

This is one of those things where I get so close to understanding it and then I lose track of the example I'm trying to form in my head, and get confused again.
A very good point well made.

You need to separate the two things in your thinking.
1. Playing against the course - submitting a score - no handicap or stableford scores play a part - only gross score.
2. Playing with and against others (eg a stableford) where handicaps are relevant to each other.
 

Voyager EMH

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Forgive me for being dim in relation to this topic but a couple of points

True, in a technical sense.
But don't most players wants to know how they fared against their handicap on the course. Or is that just me? Five under handicap will please me no end, even if it is a pretty cr*p score in absolute terms.

Essentially, isn't this what happens already though? Your course handicap is only what you're told? Handicap index 'X': Course 1 white tees play off 'Y', yellow tees play off 'Z', Course 2 white tees, play off 'A', yellow tees, play off 'B'.
"How they fared against their handicap" varies greatly under the new system. Old system was, beat your handicap - get a cut. So this was a simple target.
Not so simple now as you can get a cut even though you were two shots over your handicap and your handicap can go up even though you were two shots below your handicap. All depending on that 20th-ago score and what your 8th best is.
A better target today is to beat your 8th best score, while being aware of whether or not that 20th-ago score is in your best 8.
This is very different from the old system, yet the target of playing exactly to one's handicap remains in the thinking of the majority. Also keeping track of how many over or under 2s in stableford throughout one's round lent itself well to the old system. Neither of these methods of thinking apply in the same way under this system - it is a different system. Attempting to tinker with the system to bring it in line with the thinking that many have that was a result of the old system is not a solution, when so many have not yet adapted their thinking to the new system.
CR-Par is an option.
Doing it now or next year is too soon.
In another 5 years, when more have adapted their thinking to the new system, might be a better time to consider whether it is really needed or not.

At our course we had the case in the old system that 35 points off the whites was playing exactly to handicap and 37 points off the yellows was playing exactly to handicap.
We could have used CR-Par back then (SSS-Par) to make it 36 points off either tee was playing exactly to handicap.
We didn't because there was no need to - everyone understood the system and moving everyone's handicap up or down by the same amount was unnecessary.
And it is the same today.

Once far more people have adapted to the new system, there will be far less clamour for CR-Par.
 

Voyager EMH

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I am surprised you find that, in any dfiscussion I have with players around the different tees the vast majority find it confusing that they get the same number of shots on the longer course as they do on the shorter course (in most cases). The change may help players to understand this aspect of WHS.

I agree very few players engage in the arithmatic of it. If that was ever going to happen it would have been from the outset of WHS not after it has bedded in, so I see this change being neither a positive or negative in that regard.
Have you tried telling players that they don't "get shots on a course"?
They only "get shots" in relation to other players.
 

backwoodsman

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"How they fared against their handicap" varies greatly under the new system. Old system was, beat your handicap - get a cut. So this was a simple target.
Not so simple now as you can get a cut even though you were two shots over your handicap and your handicap can go up even though you were two shots below your handicap. All depending on that 20th-ago score and what your 8th best is.
A better target today is to beat your 8th best score, while being aware of whether or not that 20th-ago score is in your best 8.
This is very different from the old system, yet the target of playing exactly to one's handicap remains in the thinking of the majority. Also keeping track of how many over or under 2s in stableford throughout one's round lent itself well to the old system. Neither of these methods of thinking apply in the same way under this system - it is a different system. Attempting to tinker with the system to bring it in line with the thinking that many have that was a result of the old system is not a solution, when so many have not yet adapted their thinking to the new system.
CR-Par is an option.
Doing it now or next year is too soon.
In another 5 years, when more have adapted their thinking to the new system, might be a better time to consider whether it is really needed or not.

At our course we had the case in the old system that 35 points off the whites was playing exactly to handicap and 37 points off the yellows was playing exactly to handicap.
We could have used CR-Par back then (SSS-Par) to make it 36 points off either tee was playing exactly to handicap.
We didn't because there was no need to - everyone understood the system and moving everyone's handicap up or down by the same amount was unnecessary.
And it is the same today.

Once far more people have adapted to the new system, there will be far less clamour for CR-Par.
Again, I may be being simplistic. But I think you've overcomplicated, things to my way of thinking. 5 under handicap, great. 2 over handicap, not so great.
But how either of those affect my future handicap is a different question isn't it?

(And just for info, at our place, pre WHS, 'playing to handicap' was 35 off white and 37 off yellow. And even then folk thought 36 was 'the' number.I
 

Voyager EMH

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Now lets say that you (no one in particular) plays one round each year at an away course competition.
Last year your HI was 16.0 and this year it is 18.0.
"Oh, I get more shots this year."
But an 84 last year is an 84 this year and those two scores will sit in your 20 scores in exactly the same way having exactly the same effect. What you were playing off on the day makes no difference. No CR-Par last year, but CR-Par this year also makes no difference. It doesn't matter what your handicap is. A 75 is a 75 to a scratch player or a 20-handicapper.
Your handicap is not affecting your gross score when submitting a score. You play each hole to the best of your ability and thus the whole round to the best of your ability.
You submit 20 gross scores and your handicap is the average of your best 8. Doesn't matter what your handicap was on the date of each of those scores.

Handicaps come into play when we are playing with and against each other. Moving them all up a bit or down a bit by the same amount is not necessary.
 

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Now lets say that you (no one in particular) plays one round each year at an away course competition.
Last year your HI was 16.0 and this year it is 18.0.
"Oh, I get more shots this year."
But an 84 last year is an 84 this year and those two scores will sit in your 20 scores in exactly the same way having exactly the same effect. What you were playing off on the day makes no difference. No CR-Par last year, but CR-Par this year also makes no difference. It doesn't matter what your handicap is. A 75 is a 75 to a scratch player or a 20-handicapper.
Your handicap is not affecting your gross score when submitting a score. You play each hole to the best of your ability and thus the whole round to the best of your ability.
You submit 20 gross scores and your handicap is the average of your best 8. Doesn't matter what your handicap was on the date of each of those scores.

Handicaps come into play when we are playing with and against each other. Moving them all up a bit or down a bit by the same amount is not necessary.

But you can also submit score cards using a stableford format which includes a net double bogey - which does reflect in your handicap index/ score diffs
 

Voyager EMH

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But you can also submit score cards using a stableford format which includes a net double bogey - which does reflect in your handicap index/ score diffs
Stableford in this case is a strokeplay competition.
Gross score/Adjusted gross score (nett double bogey limit) is part of the submitting a score process. This is not stableford. It is a method of dealing with outlying high scores on individual holes when submitting a score. So handicap on the day makes a difference to where a treble or more is brought down to a double, but the adjusted gross is a score that remains in your record regardless of whether you were over or under your handicap or what your handicap was on the day.
 

rulefan

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Voyager EMH

You (and I) may be fighting a losing battle but the problem is that those who support CR-Par, especially the 'authorities', are trying to make the new system look like the old system. Slope, Score Differentials and averaging are brand new concepts and have changed the fundamentals of Congu UHS completely.
WHS is a new system not a 'tarted-up' old system.
 
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Jimaroid

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Have you tried telling players that they don't "get shots on a course"?
They only "get shots" in relation to other players.

Par has always been the model score of another player. So giving and receiving shots has always been in relation to another player, whether they’re imaginary against the course or real against an opponent makes no difference.
 

doublebogey7

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Have you tried telling players that they don't "get shots on a course"?
They only "get shots" in relation to other players.
Yes I have, but they remain to be convinced. As someone who, like you, understands WHS better than most I understand why for you, the change is not needed, however this change is not being implemented for you or I but for the majority.
 
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