Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[drdel]

Corbyn is damned either way you look at it ... he has opted not to participate by making a stipulation. Now we are all saying it’s his fault. But frankly he has done nothing, the referendum was offered by the Tories. They/ Cameron was voted in off the back of it and it held his party together.

Corbyn finds himself in a quandary, his party has the same divisions some want to remain others want to leave.
However irrespective of this rift in his party also being exposed, he knows if he participates in any way or form, and it goes a bit sh@t shaped, the press and the Tories will blame him...

Best thing to do is stand on the side lines, vote for what is okay and oppose what is not. Make a decision about your party line and ask those who differ in their opinion to leave.

Corbyn will never be prime minister, he has baggage that is pretty unacceptable even for tactical voters .. Labour need to change him or wither into a minority opposition.

The proposition was put to Parliament and passed!

 

[user104]

 

[harpo_72]

The proposition was put to Parliament and passed!

As was the Iraq war ...

 

[funkycoldmedina]

The proposition was put to Parliament and passed!

The Tories had a majority

 

[SocketRocket]

Parliament voted overwelmingly to activate article 50 (461 to 89) and both main parties fought an election where their manifestos were in favour of honouring the referendum.

 

[Hobbit]

The Tories had a majority

It was passed by a majority of 372. The Tories didn’t have a majority of anywhere near that. The proposition had massive cross party support.

 

[SocketRocket]

Changing the subject slightly. Without going into the detail of what Michael Gove said in his address to the house I give him 8 out of 10 on the delivery. Jezza could do well to take some lessons from him 👍

 

[hors limite]

Parliament voted overwelmingly to activate article 50 (461 to 89) and both main parties fought an election where their manifestos were in favour of honouring the referendum.

I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Nissan plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.

 

[drdel]

I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Toyota plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.

Of course it is a last resort, only happening if the two sizes fail to agree. However in any negotiation there is always the chance talks will fail; there is no other way to negotiate.

 

[bluewolf]

Of course it is a last resort, only happening if the two sizes fail to agree. However in any negotiation there is always the chance talks will fail; there is no other way to negotiate.

Very true, but the question he's asking is

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Very true, but the question he's asking is

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?

None should be the answer mate - one single job loss is unacceptable but I believe the people that are happy to take some “short term” loss are either no longer working or are in a job which has zero dealing with the EU or won’t have any affect when we leave the EU - far too many don’t care about the potential consequences of a no deal

 

[bluewolf]

None should be the answer mate - one single job loss is unacceptable but I believe the people that are happy to take some “short term” loss are either no longer working or are in a job which has zero dealing with the EU or won’t have any affect when we leave the EU - far too many don’t care about the potential consequences of a no deal

I genuinely don't believe that anyone on here would willingly sacrifice jobs. However, the more I listen to the Ardent No Deal Brexiteers (not Leavers, the people who actually want No Deal) then I just can't get my head round the fact that they're willing to sacrifice jobs on this altar. There are more than enough reasons already for job losses. We don't need to volunteer for more.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Very true, but the question he's asking is

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?

My daughters plans to expand her company into Canada and SA this year have been shelved due to Brexit.
Gutted for her as she has put so much work into it.

 

[Hobbit]

I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Toyota plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.

Pretty much on the button, but as an aside Toyota are 150 miles from Sunderland.

 

[hors limite]

Pretty much on the button, but as an aside Toyota are 150 miles from Sunderland.

Mea culpa - I should have said Nissan.

 

[Hobbit]

None should be the answer mate - one single job loss is unacceptable but I believe the people that are happy to take some “short term” loss are either no longer working or are in a job which has zero dealing with the EU or won’t have any affect when we leave the EU - far too many don’t care about the potential consequences of a no deal

I genuinely don't believe that anyone on here would willingly sacrifice jobs. However, the more I listen to the Ardent No Deal Brexiteers (not Leavers, the people who actually want No Deal) then I just can't get my head round the fact that they're willing to sacrifice jobs on this altar. There are more than enough reasons already for job losses. We don't need to volunteer for more.

I pretty much agree with where you're both coming from but would ask the question how many jobs do you think have been lost in the UK to Europe in the last 30-20-10-5 years as various countries have used incentives and subsidies to entice companies to set up in their country?

An example of what Tata Steel did. Close the blast furnace on Teesside, laying off thousands. Went into negotiations with The Netherlands to open a new plant there. Scooped £640 million from the EU in environmental grants for reducing the CO2 emissions on Teesside to close on zero because they shut the plant. And received millions in grants and tax breaks to open a new plant in The Netherlands.

If you include ship building on the Tyne, Wear and Tees to the job losses at British Steel Teesside/Hartlepool/Skinningrove/Consett + ICI, that over 130,000 job losses whilst in the EU. Add in the closures of Siemens, Fujitsu and Vickers Armstrong. You'll be hard pushed to find any sympathy in the northeast of England for the EU or Westminster. And in the last 5 years the company I worked for shipped a good chunk of manufacturing to the Czech Republic ------ this is the balancing of economies that is happening and has been happening for years. The rich countries get poorer.

And finally, where was all the weeping and wailing from the rest of the UK whilst this was going on? You talk of one job being one job too many. Where was your voice whilst the Northeast, and the northwest was getting its heart ripped out?

 

[bluewolf]

I pretty much agree with where you're both coming from but would ask the question how many jobs do you think have been lost in the UK to Europe in the last 30-20-10-5 years as various countries have used incentives and subsidies to entice companies to set up in their country?

An example of what Tata Steel did. Close the blast furnace on Teesside, laying off thousands. Went into negotiations with The Netherlands to open a new plant there. Scooped £640 million from the EU in environmental grants for reducing the CO2 emissions on Teesside to close on zero because they shut the plant. And received millions in grants and tax breaks to open a new plant in The Netherlands.

If you include ship building on the Tyne, Wear and Tees to the job losses at British Steel Teesside/Hartlepool/Skinningrove/Consett + ICI, that over 130,000 job losses whilst in the EU. Add in the closures of Siemens, Fujitsu and Vickers Armstrong. You'll be hard pushed to find any sympathy in the northeast of England for the EU or Westminster. And in the last 5 years the company I worked for shipped a good chunk of manufacturing to the Czech Republic ------ this is the balancing of economies that is happening and has been happening for years. The rich countries get poorer.

And finally, where was all the weeping and wailing from the rest of the UK whilst this was going on? You talk of one job being one job too many. Where was your voice whilst the Northeast, and the northwest was getting its heart ripped out?

I'm in the North West and have already suffered redundancy once due to the work being moved to another part of the country. So the answer to your question is that I was out looking for work. My old man lost his business as a result of the recession in 2008. My sister lost her job at the Council because of the funding being pulled as part of austerity.

Please don't try to lecture me on job losses. It's areas and industries like mine that will suffer the most in any economic downturn. I have genuine legitimate concerns.

 

[hors limite]

I agree with your sentiments.The loss of manufacturing over the decades is a big subject. My strong personal opinion is that the Westminster government is too focused on the South East. This has been exacerbated by the practice of the major parties of parachuting into their constituencies in the rest of the country party apparatchiks with no links to or understanding of those areas or their people.These MPs with no life experience outside politics end up with the" Westminster bubble focus" and are more concerned with their personal ambitions rather than the defence of local industry and jobs.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm in the North West and have already suffered redundancy once due to the work being moved to another part of the country. So the answer to your question is that I was out looking for work. My old man lost his business as a result of the recession in 2008. My sister lost her job at the Council because of the funding being pulled as part of austerity.

Please don't try to lecture me on job losses. It's areas and industries like mine that will suffer the most in any economic downturn. I have genuine legitimate concerns.

Maybe you miss my point. The EU have created a climate that makes it beneficial to move work from Northern Europe to Southern Europe. All of that happened whilst the UK was fully engaged in Europe. Staying in doesn't guarantee employment. Leaving may well lead to an increase in speed of job losses but job losses would happen anyway as companies relocate to where cheap labour is, and tax breaks and grants make it doubly beneficial. That is the economic balancing I'm on about.

My old employer, and probably many more, took advantage of those incentives years ago. Their profits haven't dipped at all but many people in the UK lost their jobs. There is no loyalty in business, and business leaders will up sticks if and when it suits with no second glance at whatever the political choices people make.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I pretty much agree with where you're both coming from but would ask the question how many jobs do you think have been lost in the UK to Europe in the last 30-20-10-5 years as various countries have used incentives and subsidies to entice companies to set up in their country?

An example of what Tata Steel did. Close the blast furnace on Teesside, laying off thousands. Went into negotiations with The Netherlands to open a new plant there. Scooped £640 million from the EU in environmental grants for reducing the CO2 emissions on Teesside to close on zero because they shut the plant. And received millions in grants and tax breaks to open a new plant in The Netherlands.

If you include ship building on the Tyne, Wear and Tees to the job losses at British Steel Teesside/Hartlepool/Skinningrove/Consett + ICI, that over 130,000 job losses whilst in the EU. Add in the closures of Siemens, Fujitsu and Vickers Armstrong. You'll be hard pushed to find any sympathy in the northeast of England for the EU or Westminster. And in the last 5 years the company I worked for shipped a good chunk of manufacturing to the Czech Republic ------ this is the balancing of economies that is happening and has been happening for years. The rich countries get poorer.

And finally, where was all the weeping and wailing from the rest of the UK whilst this was going on? You talk of one job being one job too many. Where was your voice whilst the Northeast, and the northwest was getting its heart ripped out?

How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ?

If we weren’t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.