Annual hcp review cut for people reaching or winning a match play final

[KenL]

Is is normal/reasonable/expected for a club to cut members who have won or even reached a club match play knock out comp?
If this is done at your place, is it just singles or are those in 4 ball or foursomes match play comp also cut at your place?

This is not at my club but another I heard about. Thanks.

 

[backwoodsman]

Is is normal/reasonable/expected for a club to cut members who have won or even reached a club match play knock out comp?
If this is done at your place, is it just singles or are those in 4 ball or foursomes match play comp also cut at your place?

This is not at my club but another I heard about. Thanks.

As, presumably, one has reached then played the final off a correct handicap, I can't see any justification for getting a cut? Certainly we don't do it at our place.

 

[DickInShorts]

It used to happen at a club I was a member of (in Dorset) 20 years ago!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Years gone by then it used to happen ,

Now it shouldn’t happen but it can be used in evidence when doing an annual review but not as a sole reason to change someone’s HC

 

[Backache]

As, presumably, one has reached then played the final off a correct handicap, I can't see any justification for getting a cut? Certainly we don't do it at our place.

That is totally illogical. You could say that about any other round played.
Handicap reviews surely take place routinely and where there is evidence of good or bad play.
Reaching a final is evidence of good play, particularly if there are several rounds of play.

 

[Neilds]

That is totally illogical. You could say that about any other round played.
Handicap reviews surely take place routinely and where there is evidence of good or bad play.
Reaching a final is evidence of good play, particularly if there are several rounds of play.

Reaching a final is evidence of better play than your opponent on a particular day. Not always good play and probably very rarely playing well enough to warrant a cut.

It can (and should) be used as part of a package of data at an annual review but as previously mentioned, not as a standalone piece of evidence.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We did it for the first time following last year’s KO matchplay comps…inc semi-finalists. But there was pushback from some who were cut…perfectly standard stuff as the procedure is in place for doing so, and so we are reviewing things and will likely revise the criteria determining any cut in HI. @Neilds post covers things as my club sees it with our review primarily being around other evidence.

I’ll note that competition KO matchplay golf at my place is very strong and highly competitive, and you have to get through a good number of matches to get to a semi…never mind win a comp - you have to be consistently good over many months to get there.

 

[jim8flog]

Back in the CONGU days it was specificly mentioned that this should not happen.

 

[Imurg]

We did it for the first time following last year’s KO matchplay comps…inc semi-finalists. But there was pushback from some who were cut…perfectly standard stuff as the procedure is in place for doing so, and so we are reviewing things and will likely revise the criteria determining any cut in HI. @Neilds post covers things as my club sees it with our review primarily being around other evidence.

I’ll note that competition KO matchplay golf at my place is very strong and highly competitive, and you have to get through a good number of matches to get to a semi…never mind win a comp - you have to be consistently good over many months to get there.

Not consistently good...Just consistently better than whoever you're playing.....
Personal opinion but Matchplay shouldn't be anywhere near a handicapping system.
You're not, necessarily, playing to make your best score....Just better than the other guy...
You could win a Match shooting 8 on every hole....how is that good golf that should be reflected in your handicap......?

 

[Orikoru]

Absolutely no reason to do that. In theory you could win through every one of your opponents playing poorly on the day. You might have been playing well over your handicap but still won the matches.

 

[irip]

Absolutely no reason to do that. In theory you could win through every one of your opponents playing poorly on the day. You might have been playing well over your handicap but still won the matches.

I agree with this.
If the player is not putting in many cards or playing in comps and getting to all the knockout finals then it’s something to be flagged.
Reducing someone’s handicap just for reaching a final (especially if they always enter and do not have a record of getting to finals consistently) who plays in a lot of comps and puts in GP cards seems harsh.

We all know those that are honest and just looking to play golf and those trying to manipulate their handicap to win money/comps and just getting to a final isn’t enough to justify a decision to cut someone.

 

[Neilds]

I agree with this.
If the player is not putting in many cards or playing in comps and getting to all the knockout finals then it’s something to be flagged.
Reducing someone’s handicap just for reaching a final (especially if they always enter and do not have a record of getting to finals consistently) who plays in a lot of comps and puts in GP cards seems harsh.

We all know those that are honest and just looking to play golf and those trying to manipulate their handicap to win money/comps and just getting to a final isn’t enough to justify a decision to cut someone.

My club needs a certain amount of cards, including comps, to be submitted in the preceding 12 months to be eligible for the knockouts. And reading previous threads on here, I understand that is also true for a lot of other clubs. This should negate the need for a seperate review

 

[irip]

My club needs a certain amount of cards, including comps, to be submitted in the preceding 12 months to be eligible for the knockouts. And reading previous threads on here, I understand that is also true for a lot of other clubs. This should negate the need for a seperate review

Yes but if someone was putting in the bare minimum and scoring poorly but playing well and reaching finals of the knockouts consistently then that is a red flag.

 

[Backache]

To be clear with my above post I don't think the cut should be automatic but I do think an automatic review is sensible.

Although you can win matches playing to your average or worse. Statistically is is unlikely if there have been a significant number of rounds. If a handicap committee has a policy of reviewing a handicap when someone wins a knockout automatically I would take it as a sign that they are proactive.

 

[Neilds]

To be clear with my above post I don't think the cut should be automatic but I do think an automatic review is sensible.

Although you can win matches playing to your average or worse. Statistically is is unlikely if there have been a significant number of rounds. If a handicap committee has a policy of reviewing a handicap when someone wins a knockout automatically I would take it as a sign that they are proactive.

In your opinion - Should they also carry out a review when winning a medal, or board competitions? Where do you draw the line?

 

[Backache]

In your opinion - Should they also carry out a review when winning a medal, or board competitions? Where do you draw the line?

Those single rounds automatically go into the handicapping system. If it is an extraordinary round there will be an automatic cut. With a knockout competition you can have many excellent rounds that are not reviewed.

 

[doublebogey7]

We did it for the first time following last year’s KO matchplay comps…inc semi-finalists. But there was pushback from some who were cut…perfectly standard stuff as the procedure is in place for doing so, and so we are reviewing things and will likely revise the criteria determining any cut in HI. @Neilds post covers things as my club sees it with our review primarily being around other evidence.

I’ll note that competition KO matchplay golf at my place is very strong and highly competitive, and you have to get through a good number of matches to get to a semi…never mind win a comp - you have to be consistently good over many months to get there.

You don't you merely have to better than you opponent in each round. While it is likley you will had to play very well in some of those matches, it is by no means guaranteed.

 

[IanM]

Beating the handicap sec in the knockout used to be good for a shot or two cut!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Beating the handicap sec in the knockout used to be good for a shot or two cut!

My regular pp played the handicap sec in a knockout comp last year. The week before the played he messaged him and said that as he had played well the week before he was reviewing his h/c and cut him an extra 2 shots . Not even close to subtle. I'm pleased to say that my pp still beat him

 

[KenL]

My regular pp played the handicap sec in a knockout comp last year. The week before the played he messaged him and said that as he had played well the week before he was reviewing his h/c and cut him an extra 2 shots . Not even close to subtle. I'm pleased to say that my pp still beat him

That is a disgrace and I would have been asking the advice of the county.
Seems a flagrant abuse of their powers to me.