Alterations to WHS?

[wjemather]

But "convenient" playing handicaps that in 17% of cases will be wrong.

Per the guidance, they will be correct.

 

[wjemather]

I agree, if I am playing a match and the Playing Handicap from the ‘convenient’ board says one thing and the tables calculated by ’machine precision’ say another thing then which one is ‘right’? This is an argument/discussion that committees and clubs just don’t want/need to have.
Hence scrap the boards - surprised this isn’t the official recommendatio.

If you are able to get PH using machine precision, that is what must be used.

 

[nickjdavis]

Per the guidance, they will be correct.

How?

When you are making a percentage calculation based on two different CH numbers...you will in some instances get different results for PH....they both cant be correct.

 

[D-S]

If you are able to get PH using machine precision, that is what must be used.

So if you have printed tables in the clubhouse then the boards, by definition, must not be used. So why have the boards?

 

[wjemather]

How?

When you are making a percentage calculation based on two different CH numbers...you will in some instances get different results.

People are always seeking more accuracy than is possible with handicapping. Both methods are valid and provide the desired level of equity despite the results not always being the same.

 

[nickjdavis]

People are always seeking more accuracy than us possible with handicapping. Both methods are valid and provide the desired level of equity despite the results not always being the same.

So the "guidance" effectively allows that someone may get one more/less shot by using rounded CH values on a board to calculate PH, than they might get in using "machine calculated" PH's based on unrounded CH's.

Sorry...it might be correct, but most gofers will simply think it is madness.

 

[wjemather]

So if you have printed tables in the clubhouse then the boards, by definition, must not be used. So why have the boards?

Only in competitions organised by an affiliated organisation - which is a small proportion of all golf played. CH without any further calculation will be commonly used - especially for general play submissions.

Also, one of those printed tables will be the 100% PH allowance, which is a duplicate of the CH table.

 

[wjemather]

So the "guidance" effectively allows that someone may get one more/less shot by using rounded CH values on a board to calculate PH, than they might get in using "machine calculated" PH's based on unrounded CH's.

Sorry...it might be correct, but most gofers will simply think it is madness.

Players should almost always have the tools necessary to use fully calculated PHs.
It simply makes sense to have a vastly simplified option for the potential occasions when those tools are not available, and having CH boards enables that (in addition to being a convenient lookup for the casual, especially visiting, golfer).

 

[D-S]

Also, one of those printed tables will be the 100% PH allowance, which is a duplicate of the CH table.

Of course the 100% table will be the same because that is not the problem and for General Play 100% is used so this is not the problem either.
Once %s of the unrounded number are needed that is when the problems and likely confusion arises. All the %s are available on the portal for all the Playing Handicap Allowances, so you can easily have all the allowances for the various formats available per tee set. Actually EG suggested that they could be attached to the boards.
If clubs insist on having boards I would suggest they have a sign on them saying ‘only for use in social golf - allowances received in competitions may differ from those calculated from these numbers’.

 

[wjemather]

Of course the 100% table will be the same because that is not the problem and for General Play 100% is used so this is not the problem either.
Once %s of the unrounded number are needed are when the problems arise. All the %s are available on the portal for all the Playing Handicap Allowances, so you can easily have all the allowances for the various formats available per tee set. Actually EG suggested that they could be attached to the boards.

Single ball team formats (foursomes, greensomes, scrambles) cannot be accommodated with printed tables.

 

[D-S]

Single ball team formats (foursomes, greensomes, scrambles) cannot be accommodated with printed tables.

Foursomes certainly can, are regularly done in both club and county events from the boards today - happens all the time.

For the other formats you would use either handicap calculators or ISV resources exactly as are done today, nobody tries to work allowances out for these formats from the boards now.

 

[nickjdavis]

Players should almost always have the tools necessary to use fully calculated PHs.
It simply makes sense to have a vastly simplified option for the potential occasions when those tools are not available, and having CH boards enables that (in addition to being a convenient lookup for the casual, especially visiting, golfer).

Some would argue that it makes more sense to have consistency....one system/method of calculation delivering one result....which we had when the rounded CH was used as the basis for PH calculation.

But look, me and thee are going round in circles...not sure there is much more that either of us can say. on this particular aspect of the WHS that will sway the other.

 

[Crow]

But it's a great system for the rest of the world.

 

[Genu9]

So if you have printed tables in the clubhouse then the boards, by definition, must not be used. So why have the boards?

The Boards are going to have to be changed.

In the example issued by England Golf the 'unrounded' calculation has been done to 'two' decimal places. That means that for every HCI from ' +4 through 54' there will be an 'unrounded' CH, that's 581 of them! Quite clearly no board can cover that number, and for each Tee. However, by setting up a spreadsheet to sort them out and grouping HCI's under Playing % I've managed to get my club tables down to a manageble 'sixty' lines. (copy of the White Tee listing is attached).
You look up your HCI under the % you are playing and then read across to the right to get your PH. Our current boards have a similar number of lines, so it is acheiveable.

I've also set up a 'Group Lookup' which can be accessed on Phone or Tablet which gives players all of the information they need, plus Matchplay & Greensome playing Handicaps. Enter HCI for each Player and choose Tee then everything is calculated. (copy attached also)

Adapt and overcome, needs to be the catchphrase.

 

[D-S]

The Boards are going to have to be changed.

In the example issued by England Golf the 'unrounded' calculation has been done to 'two' decimal places. That means that for every HCI from ' +4 through 54' there will be an 'unrounded' CH, that's 581 of them! Quite clearly no board can cover that number, and for each Tee. However, by setting up a spreadsheet to sort them out and grouping HCI's under Playing % I've managed to get my club tables down to a manageble 'sixty' lines. (copy of the White Tee listing is attached).
You look up your HCI under the % you are playing and then read across to the right to get your PH. Our current boards have a similar number of lines, so it is acheiveable.

I've also set up a 'Group Lookup' which can be accessed on Phone or Tablet which gives players all of the information they need, plus Matchplay & Greensome playig Handicaps. Enter HCI for each Player and choose Tee then everything is calculated. (copy attached also)

Adapt and overcome, needs to be the catchphrase.

I like that chart, makes sense, easy to read once you know what you’re looking for and, for my club, with 4 tees for men and two for women i think you could fit them on existing boards.
Why on earth EG are proposing ‘rounded’ boards which will lead to frequent confusion is beyond me.
You could make some money offering this solution to clubs.
Eagle are touting for business selling their boards etc. with a £100 voucher funded by EG, one option is a QR code linked to a calculator which not only has a high upfront cost but also a £10 per month subscription to the service.
Your solution is simpler and very user friendly.

 

[wjemather]

PH lookup tables are available to download from the WHS portal (under reports) and there is.a PH calculator available to download from the EG (and WG/SG/GI) website (called 'mixed tee calculator', under WHS resources). There is no need for anyone to be creating their own versions.

 

[Oldbutwise]

The Boards are going to have to be changed.

In the example issued by England Golf the 'unrounded' calculation has been done to 'two' decimal places. That means that for every HCI from ' +4 through 54' there will be an 'unrounded' CH, that's 581 of them! Quite clearly no board can cover that number, and for each Tee. However, by setting up a spreadsheet to sort them out and grouping HCI's under Playing % I've managed to get my club tables down to a manageble 'sixty' lines. (copy of the White Tee listing is attached).
You look up your HCI under the % you are playing and then read across to the right to get your PH. Our current boards have a similar number of lines, so it is acheiveable.

I've also set up a 'Group Lookup' which can be accessed on Phone or Tablet which gives players all of the information they need, plus Matchplay & Greensome playing Handicaps. Enter HCI for each Player and choose Tee then everything is calculated. (copy attached also)

Adapt and overcome, needs to be the catchphrase.

Outstanding. That should keep the naysayers quiet for a bit! You could certainly make some money selling tailored solutions to clubs. Well done.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Slope Rating divided by 113 done to 3 decimal places is sufficient for accurate results of handicap.

For example 127/113 = 1.124

Then a multiplication of handicap index by this figure. Add the result of CR-Par.

At this point you will have an unrounded number. It is fairly pointless to give this number a name. Australia have never given this number a name.

Then you must apply the necessary % for the format of play. After you have done this you round to a whole number. This is your handicap.

You have a Handicap Index. The above method is used to convert your handicap index to your handicap from 1st April 2024.

If you find the above calculations difficult to perform on paper, you may use a calculator.

 

[wjemather]

Slope Rating divided by 113 done to 3 decimal places is sufficient for accurate results of handicap.

For example 127/113 = 1.124

Then a multiplication of handicap index by this figure. Add the result of CR-Par.

At this point you will have an unrounded number. It is fairly pointless to give this number a name. Australia have never given this number a name.

Then you must apply the necessary % for the format of play. After you have done this you round to a whole number. This is your handicap.

You have a Handicap Index. The above method is used to convert your handicap index to your handicap from 1st April 2024.

If you find the above calculations difficult to perform on paper, you may use a calculator.

To repeat, no-one ever needs to perform these calculations manually - which includes using a calculator (an actual calculator, not an excel spreadsheet such as the congu 'mixed tee calculator') that requires knowledge of the CH calculation.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I often do things that I don't need to.
Doing crosswords, sudokus etc. Drinking alcohol, playing golf.

But I do things that I like or want to do fairly frequently. Calculating my handicap is likely to be one of these.
Does anyone NEED to stop me?