rulefan
Tour Winner
And certainly appreciated by me at least.
World Handicap System (WHS)
- Thread starter JohnnyDee
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rulefan
Tour Winner
Interesting. dotgolf are doing the 'back system' for England Golf.
upsidedown
Tour Winner
Ah that's interesting , found the NZ system so easy to use and very informative .
2blue
Journeyman Pro
Can anyone explain the calculations involved in this statement, please?
"Imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4."
"Imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4."
Swango1980
Well-known member
When calculated index, doesn't just get average of best 8 over course rating. It also applies a factor of 113/slope for each score. However, this bit is cancelled out when calculating your course handicap, which multiplies index by slope/113
rulefan
Tour Winner
If you score 12 over the Course Rating, that would have to be 'desloped' to determine your true Score Differential and thereby your Handicap Index using the following formula
SD = (113 / Slope) * (Gross - CR - PCC)
So assuming PCC = 0 and Gross - CR = 12
12 * 113/120 = 11.3
12 * 113/130 = 10.4
Remember when you calculate your Course Handicap you factor the slope in. CH = (Index * (Slope / 113)
You then take it out
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2blue
Journeyman Pro
woofers
Medal Winner
Some interesting comments and good answers on this thread, many thanks guys.
One thing I am not clear on, and would be interested to know if the recent workshop at Woodhall clarified it, is the calculation of the initial Handicap Index.
Will the scores currently in the CDH be adjusted for the course rating and slope index or just use current gross differentials ?
Perhaps if I give some data as an example
Let's be really simple and take an average of 3 scores.
Par 70. SSS 70.
Course rating has recently been issued at 70.5 (SSS now 71) and slope rating 118.
Currently on the handicap record:
Gross score 78 SSS 70 CSS 70 Gross Differential 8
Gross score 81 SSS 70 CSS 71 Gross Differential 10
Gross score 81 SSS 70 CSS 69 Gross Differential 12
Using these recorded gross differentials the initial 'Handicap Index' would be 10.0.
Using the course rating of 70.5 and 'de-sloping' the data would be :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70.5) =7.5 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.2
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70.5) = 10.5 * 113/118, HD = 10.1
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70.5) = 10.5 * 113/118, HD = 10.1
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.1.
Moving the course rating in line the change in CSS gives :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70.5) =7.5 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.2
Gross score 81. GD = (81-71.5) = 9.5 * 113/118, HD = 9.1
Gross score 81. GD = (81-69.5) = 11.5 * 113/118, HD = 11.0
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.1.
Which of these methods will be used in calculating the initial Handicap Index please?
One thing I am not clear on, and would be interested to know if the recent workshop at Woodhall clarified it, is the calculation of the initial Handicap Index.
Will the scores currently in the CDH be adjusted for the course rating and slope index or just use current gross differentials ?
Perhaps if I give some data as an example
Let's be really simple and take an average of 3 scores.
Par 70. SSS 70.
Course rating has recently been issued at 70.5 (SSS now 71) and slope rating 118.
Currently on the handicap record:
Gross score 78 SSS 70 CSS 70 Gross Differential 8
Gross score 81 SSS 70 CSS 71 Gross Differential 10
Gross score 81 SSS 70 CSS 69 Gross Differential 12
Using these recorded gross differentials the initial 'Handicap Index' would be 10.0.
Using the course rating of 70.5 and 'de-sloping' the data would be :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70.5) =7.5 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.2
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70.5) = 10.5 * 113/118, HD = 10.1
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70.5) = 10.5 * 113/118, HD = 10.1
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.1.
Moving the course rating in line the change in CSS gives :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70.5) =7.5 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.2
Gross score 81. GD = (81-71.5) = 9.5 * 113/118, HD = 9.1
Gross score 81. GD = (81-69.5) = 11.5 * 113/118, HD = 11.0
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.1.
Which of these methods will be used in calculating the initial Handicap Index please?
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
and if you only have 3 scores do not forget to take off the factor for 'low number of scores on record'
rulefan
Tour Winner
The historic gross scores will be recalculated from the last 20 scores with the SSS* as the Course Rating and Slope from the recent rating excercise in order to calculate the WHS Differentials. And then take the average of the best 8 to calculate the new Handicap Index.
There is a table which specifies how the new Index is to be allocated if there are less than 20 scores available. But is exactly as if a new player handicap was being allocated.
*It may have been confirmed recently to be the CSS
There is a table which specifies how the new Index is to be allocated if there are less than 20 scores available. But is exactly as if a new player handicap was being allocated.
*It may have been confirmed recently to be the CSS
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woofers
Medal Winner
OK thanks. I was taking 3 scores just to illustrate some workings based on all 3 being incorporated, I understand the 'build up to 20' mechanism.
So, in my example the conversion for each historic round would be :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70) =8 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.6
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70) = 11 * 113/118, HD = 10.5
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70) = 11 * 113/118, HD = 10.5
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.5.
So the CSS has no bearing on the conversion of historic scores.
And there will also be an impact where the SSS has changed, as at my club, where it is now 71, previously 70.
Undoubtedly there will be players recording identical gross scores over the 2 years which will go into the calculation but with different outcomes.
rulefan
Tour Winner
To be honest, I'm not sure about 2 points.
1) If it takes the SSS at the time the round was played (ie the old EGU rating) or the current USGA rating for all rounds
2) *****If it takes SSS (CR) or CSS - I know I have reported which earlier in another thread but I can't remember which.
williamalex1
Money List Winner
After a new player/member gets his/her initial new handicap will it stay the same for 20 rounds ?
Swango1980
Well-known member
Nope. As they put more and more cards in, it will update. After 3 cards to get initial handicap, it will take their handicap from their best score, but then take 2 off. After 4, best score but take one off. As they hand in more and more cards, it will start taking average of best 2, 3, 4 etc, until they have best 8 out of 20 rounds.
I can't remember the exact interations, but basically once they keep handing in more cards their handicap will change and get more accurate.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Format below
Number of scores, scores used for handicap, last digit is the final adjustment
3 Lowest 1 -2
4 Lowest 1 -1
5 Lowest 1 0
6 Avg Lowest 2 -1
7-8 Avg Lowest 2 0
9-11 Avg Lowest 3 0
12-14 Avg Lowest 4 0
15-16 Avg lowest 5 0
17-18 Avg lowest 6 0
19 Avg Lowest 7 0
20 Avg Lowest 8 0
2blue
Journeyman Pro
Should the 5 scores also be -1 ??
Swango1980
Well-known member
I noticed that, but no, not according to the slide anyway, I double checked.
It goes back to -1 again (for 6 scores), I believe, because you are suddenly getting an average of 2 cards rather than best 1. So, if your second best score was a fair bit higher that your best (shot in first 5 rounds), then without the -1 added in again, you could have a big jump upwards in handicap when you submit 6th score.
That is my logic anyway, I suppose the handicap would be relatively unstable anyway, or could be, until you hand more and more cards in
rulefan
Tour Winner
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Currently, under the CONGU system, there is a method of providing equity in handicapping terms during mixed golf when players are playing off different tees.
Under the new WHS, will there still be such a requirement?
Was discussing this with our handicap secretary last night and my initial reaction was..."there will not be any need for any handicap adjustment because slope will take care of the difference in the tees".
Then we started thinking about it...and our thoughts came back to the old Course Handicap Calculation formula. If we use the formula...
CH = HI * Slope/113
then this takes no account of the difficulty of the course about to be played. A male golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off our white tees, similarly a lady golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off the red tees....Yet our white tee course rating is 68.7 and our red tee rating is 69.9 (both Par 70)
However, the alternative formula of CH = (HI * Slope/113) + (CR-Par) would result in a Course Handicap of -1.3 for the men and -0.1 for the ladies. This on the face of it would seem fairer to the lady, given that she is effectively playing a harder course.
Thoughts? Would using the more complex formula to take allowance of the relative difficulties of two different tees when playing competitions from mixed tees be fairer?
Under the new WHS, will there still be such a requirement?
Was discussing this with our handicap secretary last night and my initial reaction was..."there will not be any need for any handicap adjustment because slope will take care of the difference in the tees".
Then we started thinking about it...and our thoughts came back to the old Course Handicap Calculation formula. If we use the formula...
CH = HI * Slope/113
then this takes no account of the difficulty of the course about to be played. A male golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off our white tees, similarly a lady golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off the red tees....Yet our white tee course rating is 68.7 and our red tee rating is 69.9 (both Par 70)
However, the alternative formula of CH = (HI * Slope/113) + (CR-Par) would result in a Course Handicap of -1.3 for the men and -0.1 for the ladies. This on the face of it would seem fairer to the lady, given that she is effectively playing a harder course.
Thoughts? Would using the more complex formula to take allowance of the relative difficulties of two different tees when playing competitions from mixed tees be fairer?
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
The same tees will have different ratings for men and women, and that difference will still be taken into account in mixed competition - course handicap is, effectively, a seperate matter.
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