Women's safety

[Blue in Munich]

No. I mean by briefing their officers to try not drag any women to the ground and handcuff them in front of the world's media while they're protesting about violence against women.
The negative effects of the police action will probably outweigh the positive effects of clamping down on the rulebreaking.
I wasn't there, but it looks like a night where discretion and proportionally should have been on everyone's minds.

And what happens when the limits of discretion & proportionality are reached, as appears apparent they were last night. If someone needs to be arrested because they have ignore the reasoning & the warnings, and then refuse to go quietly, what do you do then?

And discretion & proportionality goes both ways.

 

[clubchamp98]

Well if this thread is a full reflection of the population, as a middle aged man I will ignore everything going on around me when I'm outside my own 4 walls for fear of being accused of something I am not.
If trying to help someone or coming to someones aid when they cry for help is going to land me with a label I dont want then sorry, I am ignoring everone and everything out there.
Perhaps all this overly sensitive reaction and labelling is part of the problem, that real decent people are afraid to actually come to someones help for the fear of being accused of something.

Spot on
I saw a young woman struggling with a puncture on her car in Tesco car park.
I sat in my car thinking shall I go and help her!!
I did go and change her wheel for her but was a bit wary.
My mum always said to me “if you can help someone you should”
That’s just how I am and really can’t see me changing.

I also helped a young man recently change his wheel as he had never done it himself he didn’t know how to.

But the way things are going people will not help each other judging by some of the comments on here that could leave you open to accusations.
Sad really.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Not trying to bait you, and I’m sorry if it came across as such. What I’m trying to do is draw a line under it by explaining how the law regards the behaviour described. It’s not a sexual assault.

It didn't, it's someone trying to get round the fact that the mods have told him to stop.

 

[Kellfire]

It didn't, it's someone trying to get round the fact that the mods have told him to stop.

I have referred people back to my previous replies which show my opinion. I’m not trying to get around anything. My views haven’t changed.

 

[clubchamp98]

I have referred people back to my previous replies which show my opinion. I’m not trying to get around anything. My views haven’t changed.

Your opinion is valid but the lads who know are just explaining what the law is.

 

[RichA]

And what happens when the limits of discretion & proportionality are reached, as appears apparent they were last night. If someone needs to be arrested because they have ignore the reasoning & the warnings, and then refuse to go quietly, what do you do then?

And discretion & proportionality goes both ways.

I get the impression you're a retired cop.
At football matches, do the police wade into the crowd nicking people every time somebody swears or throws something?
That's the kind of discretion and proportionally I'm referring to.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I get the impression you're a retired cop.
At football matches, do the police wade into the crowd nicking people every time somebody swears or throws something?
That's the kind of discretion and proportionally I'm referring to.

If they could be identified, yes we did when matches were policed. I've even taken one in when I was attending a match as a spectator.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

There a 2 different but connected threads to this discussion. The murder and and general violence to women are things that are deep rooted and much more difficult to stop as there will always be psychopaths etc.
But also this is all about listening and understanding a rare commodity nowadays. After an event like this it's always women that are told to modify their behaviours, generally by men. As can be seen on this thread men become tone deaf and belligerent. Maybe a more appropriate reaction would be to listen and have empathy to the fears women deal with on an almost daily basis and if they have ideas as to how they can generally feel more safe maybe awful incidents like this murder wouldn't resonate as strongly with them.
My wife and I spoke about this the other day and she, like Amanda, is a runner. She has so many stories of when she's felt scared and maybe just men taking the time to listen helps.

That bold is out of order. Nobody on this thread is tone deaf or belligerent(sic)
about the problems that many women face at some time from some men.
Just because some of us do not agree that blaming all men, or at the least demanding that all men accept and acknowledge that "blame", is a proper way to help solve this eternal problem.
Rather than break an important law to support by an ineffective means the plight of women - by which I mean that I acknowledge ( as all the men on this forum undoubtedly do) that there are everyday risks faced by women re men, that men don't face re women- it would be better to demand of the legislators and the legal profession a change in laws so that the "bad " men are properly dealt with.
That is the only way that present danger levels will change.
You will never convince all men to have one correct attitude to women, just as you will not convince all people to have one attitude to almost all things.
Economics, religion, golf even?
The best you can do if have a fair system of justice, fair to the innocent and meek, as much as to the accused, that will adequately control the bad ones.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Kellfire rightly highlights the kind of issues and micro aggressions that women have to face on a daily basis but are often fearful of speaking up about, along comes a man to shut it down.

Did you even take a second to think about what you were doing?

Properly embarrassing.

It’s my job as moderator to keep order and to “advise” members if their posts are causing issues.

This is a classic example of one member posting an opinion that some found a bit extreme, reposting it and continuing to repost that opinion.

This has the effect of causing unrest and at that point I stepped in and asked him to stop repeating himself and that he had made his point.

Just another day in Modland

You’re welcome

 

[Kellfire]

It’s my job as moderator to keep order and to “advise” members if their posts are causing issues.

This is a classic example of one member posting an opinion that some found a bit extreme, reposting it and continuing to repost that opinion.

This has the effect of causing unrest and at that point I stepped in and asked him to stop repeating himself and that he had made his point.

Just another day in Modland

You’re welcome

I even accept this because it was repetitive but my question would be why aren’t you asking those posting the extreme view about touching a woman to stop?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I even accept this because it was repetitive but my question would be why aren’t you asking those posting the extreme view about touching a woman to stop?

We have a report function, feel free to use it

 

[Kellfire]

We have a report function, feel free to use it

When I have in the past I never get any sort of reply to let me know if action has or will be taken but I get your point, cheers. In this case I didn’t deem anything worthy of reporting but I just felt it rather one sided to ask me to stop and not everyone.

 

[harpo_72]

And what happens when the limits of discretion & proportionality are reached, as appears apparent they were last night. If someone needs to be arrested because they have ignore the reasoning & the warnings, and then refuse to go quietly, what do you do then?

And discretion & proportionality goes both ways.

This is it, it’s like children looking for the line to be drawn and then when it’s crossed getting upset that the punishment is delivered .. nah give the police some slack here, if they hadn’t had the vigil it wouldn’t have happened.. simple.
Look to resolve this issue properly

 

[Swinglowandslow]

There are lots of pictures and videos of the vigil last night and it’s quite clear that it’s not a good picture from all sides

The peaceful vigil appears to be have been hijacked by people and there are plenty of videos showing it was far from peaceful, looks like a good number went over the line and the ACAB placards were out in force - looks like it was used as an anti police demonstration from some - and then the police have reacted which is right if it’s getting to public disorder levels but the pictures don’t make it look good at all and then certainly remind me of this
View attachment 35584

Well, there's a surprise!!!

 

[SaintHacker]

When I have in the past I never get any sort of reply to let me know if action has or will be taken but I get your point, cheers. In this case I didn’t deem anything worthy of reporting but I just felt it rather one sided to ask me to stop and not everyone.

Possibly because you are the only person in the world, male or female, that thinks accidentally brushing the side of a womans breast when you're blatantly trying to help her after spilling something on her is sexual assault?

 

[SocketRocket]

When I have in the past I never get any sort of reply to let me know if action has or will be taken but I get your point, cheers. In this case I didn’t deem anything worthy of reporting but I just felt it rather one sided to ask me to stop and not everyone.

You have been repeating an accusation at someone that's incorrect and just don't seem able to understand that. He explained he had instinctively reached out to wipe some spilled drink and unfortunately brushed his hand on a woman's breast but you keep suggesting he assaulted her. Can you really not understand the difference between the two.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Ok guys, this tooing and froing has been done to death

Time to stop please

 

[Swinglowandslow]

ACAB uses a controversial name to get attention but it means different things to different people. For me it’s about a lack of trust in the aims of the police and a belief that the police will stick together and protect their own even during times of wrong doing. There’s also an element of mistrust in why someone would want to be in the police in the first place from people who subscribe to ACAB.

FYI - I don’t buy into ACAB though I have elements of mistrust based on things I have been told.

Oh, wonderful! You spend the first paragraph telling us why you support ACAB, then try to convince us you don't. " though I have elements....."
???

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Yep. It's a shame that the vigil seemed to have been hijacked by agitators and it's a shame that the police didn't anticipate it and plan accordingly. Any peaceful protest that results in the mess that last night appears to have turned into is going to cause embarrassment for the cops and their bosses.

Rich, come on. What "plan accordingly "do you think that should be?

Loud hailer policeman. .." ok,we know most of you are peaceful, but some of you are going to hijack this vigil. Will those in the latter group please move over to the right and remain there while we surround you with friendly officers who will try to answer your concerns."

Perhaps, that is too sarcastic, but really, how could you plan accordingly the way you infer, which is to deal with the miscreants separately from, and without interfering with or involving the peaceful vigillers.?

 

[RichA]

If they could be identified, yes we did when matches were policed. I've even taken one in when I was attending a match as a spectator.

Who rolled their eyes most - your colleagues or your friends?

Oh, wonderful! You spend the first paragraph telling us why you support ACAB, then try to convince us you don't. " though I have elements....."
???

He quite clearly didn't, for what it's worth.

 

[RichA]

Perhaps, that is too sarcastic, but really, how could you plan accordingly the way you infer, which is to deal with the miscreants separately from, and without interfering with or involving the peaceful vigillers.?

The same way they do at football matches and large protests. Facilitate the activity, gather evidence, scoop up the wrongdoers later, if necessary.