Women's safety

[AmandaJR]

I do think most women would recognise an accidental brush versus a pervy touch up. Of course it's true to say laying hands on someone is always a bit risky but sometimes an instinctive gesture as described isn't something I'd consider an issue. I would say that if the spill had been in my lap then any hands on would be crossing the line as it would not be an accidental mis-placed went for the shoulder/arm etc and got the boob instead! I've accidentally touched women's boobs on more than one occasion - they can sometimes just get in the way and a turn towards me just as I was brushing an insect of their arm or similar can result in an inadvertant mis-placed contact!

I recall my Dad - a gentleman amongst gentleman, stopping to help a woman who had broken down and coming home aghast at the fear and panic his offer caused. It's such a tricky, sensitive issue and sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Everything I am saying is well within the bounds of the topic of this post. I am pushing back against antiquated ideas that are at the core to this entire debate over what is and isn’t acceptable in how men treat women and the perceived safety that women feel. I’m only replying those people who are challenging my points made in reference to a member of this forum openly admitting he inappropriately touched a woman. I felt it was entirely reasonable to respond to those. I won’t reply to their justifications again but it’s important people realise what is and isn’t ok and look at it from modern standpoints, not those from the historic old boy’s club.

Look, answer me this. Boy asks girl out , they go on a date. He's a bit shy type, but they go out again ( and maybe again).
However, at some point, he kisses her, cos it seems opportune and he thinks he has the right signals.
He has not asked her specifically if he can do that, before he does it.

Has he indecently assaulted her and committed a crime?

Your posts suggest you may think he has. So tell us what he has to do, before trying to kiss her.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

The same way they do at football matches and large protests. Facilitate the activity, gather evidence, scoop up the wrongdoers later, if necessary.

do the police stand there and watch mayhem go unabated. Criminal damage, Assaults upon them or others. Not having a clue how or when the offenders may decide to stop?
And let us not forget that in fact,, all those gathering were gathering unlawfully because of the unprecedented situation of Covid.

 

[Kellfire]

Oh, wonderful! You spend the first paragraph telling us why you support ACAB, then try to convince us you don't. " though I have elements....."
???

I explained what it was and what the movement means in my understanding. I don’t believe all cops are bastards. That’s fairly simple to understand.

 

[Kellfire]

Look, answer me this. Boy asks girl out , they go on a date. He's a bit shy type, but they go out again ( and maybe again).
However, at some point, he kisses her, cos it seems opportune and he thinks he has the right signals.
He has not asked her specifically if he can do that, before he does it.

Has he indecently assaulted her and committed a crime?

Your posts suggest you may think he has. So tell us what he has to do, before trying to kiss her.

You’re comparing completely different scenarios. An unexpected touch of a woman’s breast is not an equivalent to a misread situation during a date. Please don’t insult this debate by suggesting it is.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Strikes me that too many men look at their words, actions and behaviour from their own perspective rather than from the woman's. We do not know her background and experiences, and whilst we might know our intentions or inadvertent mistakes, she does not. My careless word or accidental or thoughtless action might seem insignificant or even embarrassing to me, but it might feel very different to the girl or the woman.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Possibly because you are the only person in the world, male or female, that thinks accidentally brushing the side of a womans breast when you're blatantly trying to help her after spilling something on her is sexual assault?

No. what's worrying is that he isn't the only one .

 

[Beezerk]

You’re comparing completely different scenarios. An unexpected touch of a woman’s breast is not an equivalent to a misread situation during a date. Please don’t insult this debate by suggesting it is.

How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?

 

[patricks148]

do the police stand there and watch mayhem go unabated. Criminal damage, Assaults upon them or others. Not having a clue how or when the offenders may decide to stop?
And let us not forget that in fact,, all those gathering were gathering unlawfully because of the unprecedented situation of Covid.

different police forces of course but only last week the police stood by and did nothing while lots of Rangers fans gathered in George Sq and outside the stadium in Glasgow.

its doesn't look good that they were happy to stand by while lots of guys ran amuck yet chose to wade it with force for a few women

 

[Rlburnside]

I remember walking late at night in Edingburgh with my wife, there was a lone woman obviously the worse for drink on the opposite side of the road about 30 yards ahead, there were 2 men that approached her and started to accost her we quickened our pace and I started shouting thankfully they took fright and ran away.
Dread to think what could have happened

My youngest daughter was at uni in Edingburgh and it always worried me when she would make her way home, I always impressed on her to get a taxi and don’t walk home alone, but I’m sure there’s times she ignored this.

It’s horrible to say this to a young girl basically telling them there are some evil men out there.

 

[patricks148]

Lets stick to the discussion rather than 20 questions for Kellfire.

And lets not forget a young woman was abducted and murdered only a few days ago. lets not forget that

 

[Kellfire]

How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?

No they’re both as bad as each other but I do feel that a man wouldn’t feel as threatened by it and would be more likely to feel flattered because of historic norms. It’s a disgusting thing to do.

 

[doublebogey7]

How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?

Usually yes, but it would depend on the power dynamic

 

[Beezerk]

Usually yes, but it would depend on the power dynamic

Yes it's a funny one. I wouldn't dream of grabbing a womans bottom but I've had mine pinched plenty of times, it didn't really bother me at all to be honest.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Strikes me that too many men look at their words, actions and behaviour from their own perspective rather than from the woman's. We do not know her background and experiences, and whilst we might know our intentions or inadvertent mistakes, she does not. My careless word or accidental or thoughtless action might seem insignificant or even embarrassing to me, but it might feel very different to the girl or the woman.

Hogie- are you aware of what you are saying here. The first sentence has everything to do with what the law calls "intent".
The intent is the accused's intent.

Intent is necessary in most criminal offences. In some it is specifically mentioned.
Hovis intended no sexual action. If he were on trial for indecent assault it would be necessary to prove he intended that sexual assault, not merely that he intended to touch her. That would be the vital issue.
Legally, that would not take into account ( nor should it, ) what the woman thought about it.
I know, like Amanda says, in some, quite a lot, of events there can be intention disguised as accident, and in Hovis' case there would be a need for complete honesty from the lady. She would no doubt be asked precisely whether it was accident or accidentally on purpose, etc.
However, from what you have said, if you and Kellfire were on the jury.......Hmmmm??

 

[SteveW86]

Don’t forget in these times, it could equally be a man grabbing another mans bum, or a woman grabbing another woman.

 

[Beezerk]

Don’t forget in these times, it could equally be a man grabbing another mans bum, or a woman grabbing another woman.

Aaargh, I had my ar$e felt by a bloke as well, completely forgot about that

 

[Ser Shankalot]

I discovered this forum about a year ago, and have really enjoyed following the discussions. I thought the H4H day was superb and looking forward to more. However I have to say this discussion has left me bewildered.

Golf is a game of judgement. We self-police the formal rules, and expect to follow the informal rules of etiquette. We often expect to be in the 4 hr company of strangers, and welcome the experience good or bad. There is almost never an appeal to a 3rd umpire. But in discussions like this, judgement and nuance seem to vanish. Everything is black or white, my way or highway.

You'd have to be obtuse not to accept that micro-agressions happen all the time, and often in our direct experience. And that it is more than unpleasant for the victim. But we're all social animals and crave inter-personal interaction - the lock-down has taught us that if anything. And the lubricant for these social interactions is that we have the judgement to know when something is innocent, funny, flirtatious, exploitive or abusive. Otherwise we'd be in never-ending physical fights. We know, and the people around know, when something is creepy.

So I don't want to add to the ridiculous discussion on champagne on shirts - it infantalises the issue. I think Amanda's story of feeling uncomfortable when running is much more pertinent. And it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. What man has not worried about the safety of their female family or friends late at night in a way that is different from their worry about other men? I vaguely recall there was a thread a number of months ago but solo golfers, and a female member of this forum wrote that she would often like to play solo but won't as part of her course felt too isolated. So something I can do without a second thought and enjoy, a fellow golfer feels uncomfortable from her physical well-being. And she is not paranoid in feeling that way. That is something we should address as a society.

 

[patricks148]

Aaargh, I had my ar$e felt by a bloke as well, completely forgot about that

did you feel in danger or threatened by that though?

i've had similar experiences and none every made me feel in danger or threatened where as a woman may well do, its all about looking at it from a diff perspective.

 

[Jamesbrown]

How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?

Men have a knack of shrugging most things off.
Women do not, they are psychologically different.

I was raped at 12 by my younger brothers 18 year old babysitter.
Now that may sound shocking but to me it’s brings an emotion similar to one of those toe the line jokes. Pretty laughable and just think wow what a wrong’un!
Everybody knows, and it’s accepted - it happened, whoopty woo. Life goes on.

My first girlfriend was a rape victim from her uncle. She was psychologically a mess, and was pent up and kept inside of her head.

We can’t look at this from a mans perspective. We are different.