Women's safety

[Beezerk]

did you feel in danger or threatened by that though?

I'll admit, for split second I felt a bit uncomfortable as I wasn't sure if the fella was trying it on or knew I was straight and trying to have a laugh.
And yes, I was in a gay nightclub...don't ask

 

[clubchamp98]

do the police stand there and watch mayhem go unabated. Criminal damage, Assaults upon them or others. Not having a clue how or when the offenders may decide to stop?
And let us not forget that in fact,, all those gathering were gathering unlawfully because of the unprecedented situation of Covid.

Yes I have just watched BBC news and a lot squaring up to the police were men.
Faces covered with balaclavas .
They also showed a woman being manhandled ( deliberate use of manhandled) but it was quite clear it was two policewomen who had hold of her.
The press need to tone it down as well.

 

[clubchamp98]

I do think most women would recognise an accidental brush versus a pervy touch up. Of course it's true to say laying hands on someone is always a bit risky but sometimes an instinctive gesture as described isn't something I'd consider an issue. I would say that if the spill had been in my lap then any hands on would be crossing the line as it would not be an accidental mis-placed went for the shoulder/arm etc and got the boob instead! I've accidentally touched women's boobs on more than one occasion - they can sometimes just get in the way and a turn towards me just as I was brushing an insect of their arm or similar can result in an inadvertant mis-placed contact!

I recall my Dad - a gentleman amongst gentleman, stopping to help a woman who had broken down and coming home aghast at the fear and panic his offer caused. It's such a tricky, sensitive issue and sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong.

I think there are different kinds of women .

1 would be happy he tried to help save her top from staining.
2 might think what’s his game then realise he is trying to help.
3 just offended by anything and would accuse him of sexual assault.

And a lot more in between

Re your dad .
I have stopped to help people in the past ,but am afraid now I would think long and hard because you don’t know what kind of reaction you will get.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Yes I have just watched BBC news and a lot squaring up to the police were men.
Faces covered with balaclavas .
They also showed a woman being manhandled ( deliberate use of manhandled) but it was quite clear it was two policewomen who had hold of her.
The press need to tone it down as well.

So not quite the "pure as the driven snow", peaceful demonstration that we were led to believe then? Who'd have thought it. And the usual suspects out to make mileage out of it.

 

[patricks148]

I'll admit, for split second I felt a bit uncomfortable as I wasn't sure if the fella was trying it on or knew I was straight and trying to have a laugh.
And yes, I was in a gay nightclub...don't ask

a few of us used to go to mixed gay nights in London late 80's early 90's, they were great, better than having to drive around the M25 waiting to be told where the rave was on some pirate radio. Bouncers started to get wise to loads of straight guys going so you had to camp it up a bit, i remember wearing my TT skin suite a few times, same result

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Hogie- are you aware of what you are saying here. The first sentence has everything to do with what the law calls "intent".
The intent is the accused's intent.

Intent is necessary in most criminal offences. In some it is specifically mentioned.
Hovis intended no sexual action. If he were on trial for indecent assault it would be necessary to prove he intended that sexual assault, not merely that he intended to touch her. That would be the vital issue.
Legally, that would not take into account ( nor should it, ) what the woman thought about it.
I know, like Amanda says, in some, quite a lot, of events there can be intention disguised as accident, and in Hovis' case there would be a need for complete honesty from the lady. She would no doubt be asked precisely whether it was accident or accidentally on purpose, etc.
However, from what you have said, if you and Kellfire were on the jury.......Hmmmm??

I very deliberately made my comment generic and did not address any specific example. In fact any argument that refers back onto what is legal and illegal behaviour rather misses my point - indeed it rather highlights the point I made, and in saying that I think it should be obvious without reference to any example so far discussed.

And I can add that I have just had a chat with my 25yr old daughter on this whole topic - she had much to say on it. But she described how it is the case that every time she goes out for a run with another female friend (and that is almost daily), men or lads driving past leer at them, sound their horn or call out sexual comments to them - every single time. And though that it might seem to the perpetrators that their words and actions might seem like harmless male fun and badinage what she made very clear was how upsetting, unsettling and irritating it can be when men do this.

This had gone on for a long time. One of the earliest she recalled to me clearly was when she was 16 and walking home from school along the main road very close to home. The driver of white van stared at her as he passed and she could see him making some comment. He then turned up the first side road only 100yds further on. My daughter ran the 400yds home as fast as she could - fearful that the driver might have got out and had some intentions towards her. That van driver's stare and comment were to him completely innocent - of course he had no intent - but they instilled fear in my daughter. That's what I mean by men needing to see their actions words and behaviour through the eyes of the girl or woman.

She did also say that just a couple of days ago she and a pal were standing at traffic lights and some teenage lads in a van called out to her that she had a big bunda. She smiled as she told me this as she said she had to ask another couple at the lights if they knew what her bunda was as she didn't - they didn't and neither did I - but she has now told me.

She is pleased that this is now being discussed as she finds what she and her friends have to put up with as being completely unacceptable.

 

[Hobbit]

Why does every single thread have to end up like this when you jump in with a big finger pointed at people.

Many actions from both male and female can be classed as sexual assault if done as a deliberate forced sexual action

You don’t have to disect everything down to the finite level just so you can find guilt

I’ve done what Hovis has done, and been horrified by it. However, does the judge go on the actions or what you might or might not have been thinking? Common sense doesn’t always figure in the application of the law, and this is a prime example.

Hovis, like me, had no intention of making any sort of sexual advance but we ‘invaded’ someone’s (very) personal space in an area that could lead to a claim of sexual assault.

I’d say we didn’t have a leg to stand, especially if the person the receiving end made a big thing about it. Guilty, no. Guilty based on evidence, yes.

 

[Blue in Munich]

different police forces of course but only last week the police stood by and did nothing while lots of Rangers fans gathered in George Sq and outside the stadium in Glasgow.

its doesn't look good that they were happy to stand by while lots of guys ran amuck yet chose to wade it with force for a few women

Different countries. Different forces. Different laws. Different circumstances. One driven by celebration, one driven by anger. And only one of the two been up in front of the High Court in the lead up as far as I am aware. Other than that, completely comparable events.

And in view of the comments by another poster regarding men in balaclavas confronting the police, maybe the comment about choosing to wade in with force for a few women was not entirely accurate.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I’ve done what Hovis has done, and been horrified by it. However, does the judge go on the actions or what you might or might not have been thinking? Common sense doesn’t always figure in the application of the law, and this is a prime example.

Hovis, like me, had no intention of making any sort of sexual advance but we ‘invaded’ someone’s (very) personal space in an area that could lead to a claim of sexual assault.

I’d say we didn’t have a leg to stand, especially if the person the receiving end made a big thing about it. Guilty, no. Guilty based on evidence, yes.

That being the case Brian, I'm grateful I never had to use a defribilator on a woman given the training instructions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1370961184640356352

This is the lady that is in the photograph

So was she there for the young lady who lost her life or there to protest against the police and wants to see more protests

 

[clubchamp98]

its doesn't look good that they were happy to stand by while lots of guys ran amuck yet chose to wade it with force for a few women[/QUOTE]


If you watch the news on BBC this afternoon there were a lot of men in balaclavas confronting the police not just women at this Vigil.
I know for a fact lots of women were at the Rangers celebration,my two nieces were there and sent me pictures with their female friends.

 

[clubchamp98]

That being the case Brian, I'm grateful I never had to use a defribilator on a woman given the training instructions.

Especially if she is wearing an underwire bra.
But without touching how would you know.
I don’t envy anyone put in this place.
But if she needs a defib she is in big trouble.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I’ve done what Hovis has done, and been horrified by it. However, does the judge go on the actions or what you might or might not have been thinking? Common sense doesn’t always figure in the application of the law, and this is a prime example.

Hovis, like me, had no intention of making any sort of sexual advance but we ‘invaded’ someone’s (very) personal space in an area that could lead to a claim of sexual assault.

I’d say we didn’t have a leg to stand, especially if the person the receiving end made a big thing about it. Guilty, no. Guilty based on evidence, yes.

Common sense doesn't come into the law. Guilty or not should (and the judge will reinforce it, ) depend on the evidence.
You say Hovis and you had no intent . You are not guilty.
The circumstances would determine whether ,when you say you had no intent, you were telling the truth, or could be telling the truth.
The other persons there are witnesses. From your demeanour they would have formed an pinion as to your intent, or lack of it. What they did or said at the time would be highly relevant. What they say in Court as to what they and others, including the woman did or said at the time would be important.
Was there an immediate complaint or not? Etc etc.
And if there is the slightest doubt about your intent, then it's not guilty.
Intent is very hard to prove. You are trying to prove what someone was thinking.
It is not for you or Hovis to prove you didn't intend anything sexual.
It is for the prosecution to prove that you did.
As Descartes said, "All actions in themselves are indifferent. What makes them good or evil is the intention"

 

[Old Skier]

Have we become a society that can choose which laws to accept and which ones we can break. Police once again in a no win situation and, as always there are the rent a demo mob.

 

[clubchamp98]

Have we become a society that can choose which laws to accept and which ones we can break. Police once again in a no win situation and, as always there are the rent a demo mob.

Yes I think we have , some of us anyway!( Dominic Cummings comes to mind) .
People are so arrogant now they think the law dosnt apply to them.
And it’s not just the rich.

Nearly all demonstrations now are high jacked by a vocal minority of some sort.

 

[Smiffy]

Aaargh, I had my ar$e felt by a bloke as well, completely forgot about that

I remember that Forest Pines meet.
Good, wasn't it?

???

 

[hovis]

Something to lighten the mood

 

[Smiffy]

This is the lady that is in the photograph
So was she there for the young lady who lost her life or there to protest against the police and wants to see more protests

I've watched different videos of the "vigil" and it's patently obvious that some were there just to cause trouble and carry on their smear/hate campaign against the police. Sadly, it was always on the cards

 

[SocketRocket]

This isn't posted as a dig at Corbyn but to show how innocently these things can happen.

 

[hovis]

This isn't posted as a dig at Corbyn but to show how innocently these things can happen.

? ? ? ? ? That's hilarious