WHS Handicap Index

[rulefan]

I agree it is not clear exactly what data will be used in the transition. Hence my original question. I also have six new scores this year and agree that even though they have generally been average to poor my HI has also not changed significantly. For the time being that makes sense to me. What was alarming was that my HI was coming out at 3.4 with a Course Handicap of 4. That was worrying because my lowest ever handicap under CONGU is 5 which is challenging enough for a 63 year old, never mind reducing it further. At the other end of the scale my wife's Handicap moves up from 21 to a Course Handicap of 23. My conclusion is that the change will generally help higher handicaps and make it even tougher for lower.

Using net differentials rather than Course Ratings makes a very minor difference but can in some circumstances produce an extra shot or reduce it by one dependant on the actual differences.

The WHS transition does not calculate a Course Handicap. It only calculates a Handicap Index.
What is the SSS/CR of the course/tees where most of your scores were recorded? Did it change when you were rated?
A CH relates to a specific set of tees on a specific course. But the effect of the transition conversion calculation is that exactly the same algorithm is applied to all players regardless of the course(s) and tees they may have played in the last two years.

Re the red highlight. How did you determine your HI? I wasn't aware that HIs were published yet.

 

[rulefan]

I am sorry I do not know exactly what information is uploaded to the CDH at this time.

SSS, CSS, Gross, Handicap (integer), Net, Stableford Adjustment, Adjusted Gross, Par, Gross Differential, Net Differential.

What is also interesting is that the playing handicap has not altered with rounding and the 95% allowance.

I'm not sure what the relevance of the 95% is. It is only applied at the time of competition not as a result of the transition calculation.

 

[fundy]

Can I ask those in the know, if someone moves clubs just before the WHS is implemented so some of their qualifying rounds are from their previous course, are these still taken into account when calculating their index, and if so are they treated on the old basis compared to CSS/SSS or is slope taken into account retrospectively and those rounds adjusted for that?

Many thanks

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Can I ask those in the know, if someone moves clubs just before the WHS is implemented so some of their qualifying rounds are from their previous course, are these still taken into account when calculating their index, and if so are they treated on the old basis compared to CSS/SSS or is slope taken into account retrospectively and those rounds adjusted for that?

Many thanks

I asked this question and it was confirmed the last 20 qualifying scores from whatever location will be used. In extreme there could be no scores from your new club that are used to calculate your HI.

 

[fundy]

I asked this question and it was confirmed the last 20 qualifying scores from whatever location will be used. In extreme there could be no scores from your new club that are used to calculate your HI.

ty sir

 

[rulefan]

Can I ask those in the know, if someone moves clubs just before the WHS is implemented so some of their qualifying rounds are from their previous course, are these still taken into account when calculating their index, and if so are they treated on the old basis compared to CSS/SSS or is slope taken into account retrospectively and those rounds adjusted for that?

Many thanks

All scoring records are taken from the CDH database not from your club's software/database

 

[jim8flog]

The WHS transition does not calculate a Course Handicap. It only calculates a Handicap Index.
What is the SSS/CR of the course/tees where most of your scores were recorded? Did it change when you were rated?
A CH relates to a specific set of tees on a specific course. But the effect of the transition conversion calculation is that exactly the same algorithm is applied to all players regardless of the course(s) and tees they may have played in the last two years.

Re the red highlight. How did you determine your HI? I wasn't aware that HIs were published yet.

SSS, CSS, Gross, Handicap (integer), Net, Stableford Adjustment, Adjusted Gross, Par, Gross Differential, Net Differential.



I'm not sure what the relevance of the 95% is. It is only applied at the time of competition not as a result of the transition calculation.

If you follow the thread between the two of us you will read that we are both using a spreadsheet to monitor our projected H.I.s and the 'conversation' is about what is being shown up on the spreadsheets.

 

[Swango1980]

Given that under the WHS 36 points is now playing to handicap does the lower handicap under the WHS reflect the change in what the Stableford points are currently when you play to handicap.

Where I play we have gone a little bit the other way. My WHS playing handicap remains unchanged compared to my current handicap but currently 37 points is playing to handicap.

Is this true? I suspect it is not. There will be courses with very similar Slope values, but the CR very different in relation to par. For example, even at my home course Slope for yellow tees is 130, for white tees 133. So, the majority of golfers will play off the same handicap regardless of the tees they are playing off. However, the CR is 2.6 shots lower for the yellow tees (same par). So, are we saying 36 points is playing to handicap for both yellow and white tees?

 

[doublebogey7]

Is this true? I suspect it is not. There will be courses with very similar Slope values, but the CR very different in relation to par. For example, even at my home course Slope for yellow tees is 130, for white tees 133. So, the majority of golfers will play off the same handicap regardless of the tees they are playing off. However, the CR is 2.6 shots lower for the yellow tees (same par). So, are we saying 36 points is playing to handicap for both yellow and white tees?

You are right at least in England. This was explained clearly at the seminar I attended. Within WHS there is the option to add/subtract the difference between Par and course rating to the Course Handicap, but England Golf (or CONGU) has declined to use that option.

 

[jim8flog]

Is this true? I suspect it is not. There will be courses with very similar Slope values, but the CR very different in relation to par. For example, even at my home course Slope for yellow tees is 130, for white tees 133. So, the majority of golfers will play off the same handicap regardless of the tees they are playing off. However, the CR is 2.6 shots lower for the yellow tees (same par). So, are we saying 36 points is playing to handicap for both yellow and white tees?

That is my understanding from other threads and comments.
It is what slope is supposed to be all about so wherever you play it is the same.

Ours are also very close 124 and 128 but like yours there is 1.2 difference in course rating and when the maths are done my course and playing handicaps are virtully the same with rounding. I would wonder if this is the same if the decimal points were different ie at the moment I am 10.9 and 10.5 (course) so it would not take much for there to be one shot difference.

 

[Swango1980]

That is my understanding from other threads and comments.
It is what slope is supposed to be all about so wherever you play it is the same.

Ours are also very close 124 and 128 but like yours there is 1.2 difference in course rating and when the maths are done my course and playing handicaps are virtully the same with rounding. I would wonder if this is the same if the decimal points were different ie at the moment I am 10.9 and 10.5 (course) so it would not take much for there to be one shot difference.

As doublebogey clarified, in England playing to 36 points is not playing to handicap under WHS, in similar way to now under current system. The Slope is not designed to make that happen, it is designed to account for the relative difference in difficulty of a course between lower and higher handicappers, not the absolute difference of the course. The way to take the absolute difference into account as well would have been, once the Course Handicap calculated from Slope, to then make a further adjustment based on the difference between Par and CR (i.e. if Par was 72 and CR was 70.0, subtract 2.0 from the course handicap (to make the new course handicap). Some handicap authorites will do this, but not England Golf

 

[jim8flog]

As doublebogey clarified, in England playing to 36 points is not playing to handicap under WHS, in similar way to now under current system. The Slope is not designed to make that happen, it is designed to account for the relative difference in difficulty of a course between lower and higher handicappers, not the absolute difference of the course. The way to take the absolute difference into account as well would have been, once the Course Handicap calculated from Slope, to then make a further adjustment based on the difference between Par and CR (i.e. if Par was 72 and CR was 70.0, subtract 2.0 from the course handicap (to make the new course handicap). Some handicap authorites will do this, but not England Golf

Yes. Just been off to do some further reading and course rating is very much part of the calculation.

So meaculpa got that one wrong.

 

[rulefan]

As doublebogey clarified, in England playing to 36 points is not playing to handicap under WHS, in similar way to now under current system. The Slope is not designed to make that happen, it is designed to account for the relative difference in difficulty of a course between lower and higher handicappers, not the absolute difference of the course. The way to take the absolute difference into account as well would have been, once the Course Handicap calculated from Slope, to then make a further adjustment based on the difference between Par and CR (i.e. if Par was 72 and CR was 70.0, subtract 2.0 from the course handicap (to make the new course handicap). Some handicap authorites will do this, but not England Golf

Yes. CONGU has agreed that Par tells you nothing about how well or badly you played as it has no concept of difficulty. A course of short par 4s has the same Par as a course of long par 4s.
They have decided that CR and CH are the significant figures and significantly less complicated to work with than adding or subtracting to or from your stableford score.

 

[Ethan]

Is there any central repository of course ratings and slopes calculated so far (noting that not all have been done)?

I did a quick run through my last 20 scores and chose the 8 with the best differentials and using course rating and slopes calculated for visiting US golfers, that would suggest my HI would be a shade lower than the current handicap.

 

[doublebogey7]

Is there any central repository of course ratings and slopes calculated so far (noting that not all have been done)?

I did a quick run through my last 20 scores and chose the 8 with the best differentials and using course rating and slopes calculated for visiting US golfers, that would suggest my HI would be a shade lower than the current handicap.

https://ncrdb.usga.org/

 

[Ethan]

https://ncrdb.usga.org/

Thanks. That is the data I googled. Wasn't sure if it was legit for here or not. So for my place, the numbers are:

Tees: White; Par: 72; Course Rating: 72.0; Bogey Rating: 98.3; Slope: 142; Front 9: 35.6/141; Back 9: 36.4/142

I am currently 9.8, but if I take the last 8 of 20, eliminating rounds where I didn't finish (e.g. sore knee after 9, walked in, saw a rule saying 10 holes had to completed), would drop to 8.2. If all last 20 included, ignoring those incomplete 8.9.

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks. That is the data I googled. Wasn't sure if it was legit for here or not. So for my place, the numbers are:

Tees: White; Par: 72; Course Rating: 72.0; Bogey Rating: 98.3; Slope: 142; Front 9: 35.6/141; Back 9: 36.4/142

I am currently 9.8, but if I take the last 8 or 20, eliminating rounds where I didn't finish (e.g. sore knee after 9, walked in), would drop to 8.2. If all last 20 included, ignoring those incomplete 8.9.

Yes, I worked out a few dozen for members at my club, and generally they pretty much all come out lower than current handicap. But, as the Slope for most courses is quite a bit above 113, the Course Handicap will generally come out much closer to your current handicap (i.e. Your course handicap would be 10.3)

 

[Ethan]

Yes, I worked out a few dozen for members at my club, and generally they pretty much all come out lower than current handicap. But, as the Slope for most courses is quite a bit above 113, the Course Handicap will generally come out much closer to your current handicap (i.e. Your course handicap would be 10.3)

When you calculate them, do you exclude incomplete rounds?

So the HI is effectively the base handicap and then you multiply by slope/113 to get the course handicap for any course, including your own, you are playing at?

 

[Swango1980]

When you calculate them, do you exclude incomplete rounds?

So the HI is effectively the base handicap and then you multiply by slope/113 to get the course handicap for any course, including your own, you are playing at?

In terms of calculating Handicap Index, I presume this will be based on all rounds on your official record, so this would include incomplete rounds if they were included and got you 0.1 back. I'm also sure it won't include non-qualifying rounds on your record.

Course Handicap = Index x Slope / 113

 

[Ethan]

In terms of calculating Handicap Index, I presume this will be based on all rounds on your official record, so this would include incomplete rounds if they were included and got you 0.1 back. I'm also sure it won't include non-qualifying rounds on your record.

Course Handicap = Index x Slope / 113

Thanks. I am not sure how the club records incomplete. I suspect if they get a card back where the entire back 9 says NR for each hole, they may not know or care if someone stopped playing or just stopped marking.

I thought I read somewhere that a card taken out for an 18 hole score only counted if 10+ holes were played. Maybe I made that up.