WHS - Has it made it easier for Handicap “manipulation”

[Deleted member 15344]

Overall the last couple of years we have all heard and witnessed lots of stories from people about opens and club comps been won by very high scores

Through the time we have seen peoples handicap go northwards in extreme fashion

So the question is has the new system allowed players to manipulate their handicap far easier than before

And do clubs now need to tighten their rules and restrict players who have very little comp scores on their record

 

[LincolnShep]

Through the time we have seen peoples handicap go northwards in extreme fashion

I haven't.

 

[Bratty]

Mine hasn't, the opposite in fact. However, some have gone up and not come down fast enough.
Pairs partner went up from 17 to 22 when the index came in, and proceeded to play very well and was called all the names under the sun. No fault of his at the time, but it's taken this long for him to get back down to 16, and that's still probably 3 shots too high.
He's putting cards in, but not social/swindle rounds and he played a lot in Scotland and decided he couldn't be bothered with the hassle of trying to put cards in there.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Overall the last couple of years we have all heard and witnessed lots of stories from people about opens and club comps been won by very high scores

Through the time we have seen peoples handicap go northwards in extreme fashion

So the question is has the new system allowed players to manipulate their handicap far easier than before

And do clubs now need to tighten their rules and restrict players who have very little comp scores on their record

It is not necessarily those with very few comp scores on their record that are manipulating handicaps upwards.
Such a player might see that he has 2 good counting scores to disappear in the next three rounds.
So he could be showing three very recent scores on his record, but these were done in order to raise his handicap by a shot or two.
And exactly the same thing could be seen on a non-guilty player's record.
Not so easy to identify an unscrupulous golfer.
You need to be able to provide proof of deliberate poor playing and such scores being entered. Not easy to do.

 

[IanM]

If Clubs don't police General Play scores properly it's dead easy.

Some do, some definitely don't.

 

[jim8flog]

It is not necessarily those with very few comp scores on their record that are manipulating handicaps upwards.
Such a player might see that he has 2 good counting scores to disappear in the next three rounds.
So he could be showing three very recent scores on his record, but these were done in order to raise his handicap by a shot or two.
And exactly the same thing could be seen on a non-guilty player's record.
Not so easy to identify an unscrupulous golfer.
You need to be able to provide proof of deliberate poor playing and such scores being entered. Not easy to do.

This was just as easy to do under the UHS by submitting Supplementary Scores if you were around .3 - two scores over the SSS and you went up to .5.

 

[jim8flog]

I have seen players do this however as they have switched to submitting a score every time they play not much to be done.

I had one player complain that his scores were not going up as expected and had to explain to him about Caps.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The answer to the question is yes - it is easier to manipulate handicaps. The WHS framework will allow this to continue as additional formats are added.

Can this be managed by clubs? Yes to some extent, but with the number of GP rounds played it is difficult for volunteer H/C teams to cope. Also the MyEG GP rounds are rarely checked by H/C teams.

Should we worry? Yes, but the implications will be that many of the traditional club activities will attract fewer entries. I would include Opens, Knock-outs, etc. which will become increasingly unattractive to lower handicaps.

There has always been the opportunity to manipulate handicaps - it's just easier now.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm not convinced it is any easier to manipulate than before. Those that wanted to could easily do the same under the previous regime. Maybe we are just more sensitive to it due to the very fact that the system has changed and so we notice it.

I suspect the bigger different is the expansion of the max handicap allowance and WHS is getting caught up in that as it happened at a similar time.

 

[jim8flog]

If Clubs don't police General Play scores properly it's dead easy.

Some do, some definitely don't.

I remember needing to know how many GP scores were gong in every day and it astounded the manager to realise that it was somewhere around 40 and there in lies the problem - how many clubs would have the time to review 40 plus cards going in everyday.

Realistically it should be up to other members to monitor their mates handicaps and bring 'discrepancies' to the attention of the committee.

 

[Slab]

I think WHS is supposed to show ‘form’ ability rather than ‘Sunday best’ ability, handicaps will now fluctuate much more easily than previously

Does that mean someone who wants to manipulate their handicap will find it easier, probably yes (but ‘easier’ really just means more quickly) It’s up to the safeguards in the process to catch you, whether that’s on the old or the new system

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm not convinced it is any easier to manipulate than before. Those that wanted to could easily do the same under the previous regime. Maybe we are just more sensitive to it due to the very fact that the system has changed and so we notice it.

I suspect the bigger different is the expansion of the max handicap allowance and WHS is getting caught up in that as it happened at a similar time.

During the old system most of the time any score that was applied to a persons handicap was via a comp - people could put supplementary cards but most did to keep handicap active and it was very used a lot - it also closely monitored via ISV


Now you can put every single round in and all verified via an external app outside the clubs control. The EG whilst it’s great can also easily be manipulated

Even recently we just saw that an open was won with some have 4 extras shots on the handicap over two years with onto general play scores

That’s not something that could happen in the past

 

[Voyager EMH]

"Form" is a nonsense.
My Hi is 4.3.
I used 20 most recent scores from April, May and September - my HI was 5.2.
Did the same calculation for scores in June, July and August and it was 3.9.
Pretty much as I expected.
So I will commence competitive golf in April with a handicap that does not reflect what I am likely to play to. It is too low.
My HI will rise during April and early May.
Then I will have a handicap that is too high for June and July.
This cycle is likely to continue.
I am not manipulating my handicap.
WHS is manipulating me.

 

[Imurg]

The answer to the question is yes - it is easier to manipulate handicaps. The WHS framework will allow this to continue as additional formats are added.

Can this be managed by clubs? Yes to some extent, but with the number of GP rounds played it is difficult for volunteer H/C teams to cope. Also the MyEG GP rounds are rarely checked by H/C teams.

Should we worry? Yes, but the implications will be that many of the traditional club activities will attract fewer entries. I would include Opens, Knock-outs, etc. which will become increasingly unattractive to lower handicaps.

There has always been the opportunity to manipulate handicaps - it's just easier now.

This....
If I wanted to, I could sign in on the PSI terminal for a GP round, go out and play, input any score I choose and put the card in the box.
IF the card is checked I will have been savvy enough to make sure the card matches what I've input. I can "forge" anyone's squiggle to attest to the score.
The club won't know who I've played with.
Hell, I could even sit in the car park for 2 hours and fill in any scores I like without even getting my shoes on....
We get around 400 GP cards being entered every week.....very hard to keep track of all of those.....
If that hasn't made manipulation easier then I don't know what could.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

During the old system most of the time any score that was applied to a persons handicap was via a comp - people could put supplementary cards but most did to keep handicap active and it was very used a lot - it also closely monitored via ISV

Supplementary cards acted in the same way as GP now. WHS has focused people to put more cards in, it has been actively encouraged but the option has always been there.

At past clubs I knew guys who would do the bare minimum to keep their handicap then go off and play opens off artificially high handicaps. That's manipulation, it happened before.

 

[Imurg]

Supplementary cards acted in the same way as GP now. WHS has focused people to put more cards in, it has been actively encouraged but the option has always been there.

At past clubs I knew guys who would do the bare minimum to keep their handicap then go off and play opens off artificially high handicaps. That's manipulation, it happened before.

Don't forget, under the old system, you would only go up 0.1 for every poor score.....that means dozens of cards to make 3 or 4 shots difference.
Now, 1 card can mean a whole shot increase.

 

[IanM]

I remember needing to know how many GP scores were gong in every day and it astounded the manager to realise that it was somewhere around 40 and there in lies the problem - how many clubs would have the time to review 40 plus cards going in everyday.

Realistically it should be up to other members to monitor their mates handicaps and bring 'discrepancies' to the attention of the committee.

Agreed. Clubs should not allow folk without a reasonable number (to be agreed) of club comp scores to win prizes in Opens. If it's all Gen Play scores, who is policing that?? No one. Then they appear in Team Comps and clean up.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Supplementary cards acted in the same way as GP now. WHS has focused people to put more cards in, it has been actively encouraged but the option has always been there.

At past clubs I knew guys who would do the bare minimum to keep their handicap then go off and play opens off artificially high handicaps. That's manipulation, it happened before.

Yes it has happened before and it will always happen but the question was - has it been made easier now

Players know when there handicap is going to change significantly when they have counting cards coming off

 

[IanM]

I am not manipulating my handicap.
WHS is manipulating me.

Yes and no.

The "new" system is a different beast compared with the old one. The level of volatility depends on how many cards go in and what scores they are. More movement for regular score entry is going to happen...

What I object to is folk putting in bogus scores in order to manipulate their handicap. As said above, too many GP cards go in for many clubs to manage.

 

[IanM]

Yes it has happened before and it will always happen but the question was - has it been made easier now

Absolutely. I can key a card from the comfort of my living room for my nearest course. I get someone round for a beer and to watch the footy, he can sign it off before he goes!

Team comp... 2 out of 4... BINGO! Nice new shoes or a £200 bag.