WHS - Has it made it easier for Handicap “manipulation”

[rosecott]

I should have clarified.

Just before WHS, he was around 18/19. Since WHS, we played a bit at our old club, and then many of us moved to other clubs (he came to the one I did). He hasn't played many comps at the new club (still has about 2 or 3 scores from the old club we were members of), but his course handicap was 28 up until a week before the winter (no scores could be enterd after that). We managed to make him submit his last social score of last year, which got him to 27 (i.e. forced him to pre register before teeing off the first).

Even with that in mind, over the winter he has shot over 50 points twice this winter, and it is unusualy for him to be under 40 points (in fairness, the course set up could be 2 or 3 shots easier than it would normally be). So he pretty much hammers everyone each time he plays.

Why do the handicap committee not know? Well, let me ask more generally, given that nearly every golfer at every club has stories of individuals that have handicaps that are far too high, why is it that the handicap committees never know? I'd suggest that there are 2 factors:

1. It is difficult to keep track of hundreds of members individually, especially if they are never seen in competitions
2. Even if they have heard stories, and seen some bad scores entered, it takes more than hearsay and a few scores to be convincing. For all they know, these scores are genuine, and those accusing someone of being a bandit are just over exaggerating. If the handicap sec actually played regularly with the golfer, then they may in a better position to decide either way.

A handicap review may be conducted at the request of the player or another player at any time. Perhaps you could be "another player"?

When conducting a handicap review, the Handicap Committee might consider:
Comparison of average Score Differentials between competitive and casual rounds.

 

[Swango1980]

Why is it that the people who moan the most about alleged cheating are the ones least likely to report anything?

You mean why do people not report on their mates cheating? Hmmm, I wonder why that is, maybe a clinical psychologist is required on why people do not report the golfers they play with to Committee, that is beyond me

What is cheating? Over a couple of years a player goes from 18 pre WHS to 28. All scores seem fairly genuine over that longer period, but this player now refused to submit scores socially, but rarely plays competitively. Should he be reported for cheating for not entering scores? or, if he does enter a competition, should he be reported for cheating?

Then another player does submit GP scores, but plays badly. Submits a string of scores in the mid to high 80's, when he might have been low 80's to high 70's before. He is missing the odd short putt, and he isn't always taking full care and attention on his pre-shot routine. Is he cheating? Should he take more time? There is no evidence on him purposely missing putts, but should be report him for suspected cheating?

For the first guy, we can encourage him to enter more scores, which we will. For the second guy, I'm not sure we are in a position to ask him to take more time in GP rounds, given that even in competitive rounds most golfers have their moments of rushed and careless golf.

If someone was blatantly and clearly cheating (e.g. submitting false scores), then you'd hope they'd be reported. But then, techncially if they were your mate, would you report them or just tell them to wise up? And if it wasn't a mate, I don't think many people would worry about reporting it.

 

[Swango1980]

A handicap review may be conducted at the request of the player or another player at any time. Perhaps you could be "another player"?

When conducting a handicap review, the Handicap Committee might consider:
Comparison of average Score Differentials between competitive and casual rounds.

He has no score differentials for casual rounds. That is why his handicap is as high as it is.

Our solution is simple, several of us have told him in no uncertain terms he needs to start submitting scores as his hcp is ridiculous. This will avoid the need of having to run the the Handicap Committee and them having to make up a number, after accepting our word for it. Of course, he doesn't have to submit GP scores, but we've also said if he doesn't, it'll no longer be loser buys the coffee or we won't be putting £2 into the pot in a mini roll up if enough turn up. Last year, we already agreed to only play a roll up if he wasn't there.

 

[D-S]

The availability of apps has nothing to do with a new opportunity to cheat in WHS. Apps would have come regardless of WHS.
You mention EG in particular; do all apps have the same loophole? I thought others (? IG, V1, GG, HM) had tighter controls.

We were advised by EG to get members to use their App rather than those of the ISVs as it had more and better security features. One of these, the geo location of the attester as well as the player, was promised but never arrived.

 

[Orikoru]

You mean why do people not report on their mates cheating? Hmmm, I wonder why that is, maybe a clinical psychologist is required on why people do not report the golfers they play with to Committee, that is beyond me

What is cheating? Over a couple of years a player goes from 18 pre WHS to 28. All scores seem fairly genuine over that longer period, but this player now refused to submit scores socially, but rarely plays competitively. Should he be reported for cheating for not entering scores? or, if he does enter a competition, should he be reported for cheating?

Then another player does submit GP scores, but plays badly. Submits a string of scores in the mid to high 80's, when he might have been low 80's to high 70's before. He is missing the odd short putt, and he isn't always taking full care and attention on his pre-shot routine. Is he cheating? Should he take more time? There is no evidence on him purposely missing putts, but should be report him for suspected cheating?

For the first guy, we can encourage him to enter more scores, which we will. For the second guy, I'm not sure we are in a position to ask him to take more time in GP rounds, given that even in competitive rounds most golfers have their moments of rushed and careless golf.

If someone was blatantly and clearly cheating (e.g. submitting false scores), then you'd hope they'd be reported. But then, techncially if they were your mate, would you report them or just tell them to wise up? And if it wasn't a mate, I don't think many people would worry about reporting it.

Snitches get stitches innit.

 

[D-S]

Are more people manipulating their handicaps now? - nobody knows as we didn't quantify before nor do we now.

Are there more stories/rumours of handicap manipulation? - Yes.

Is it easier? Of course yes, it is anonymous via an App and has few limitations (you can do it every day not just once a week as with Supplementary Scores, all Handicap categories can including old Cat 1 who couldn't before). Scores are less susceptible to scrutiny as they are input by the player remotely and the sheer volume means that most Committees can't keep up with them, some Committees (a significant %?) do not scrutinise them at all due to a lack of diligence, some due to having 800+ transitory members.

Is it a real problem yet? - I don't think so as Comps and Opens are still popular, however the direction of travel might not be good - though the new 4BB scrutiny is a needed and welcome innovation.

 

[Swango1980]

Snitches get stitches innit.

We had a shotgun start comp once. Player A saw Player B (in another group) practicing on the 3rd green, before starting the comp (Player B was due to start on the 4th tee). Midway through the round, Player A reported Player B to the Comp Sec when he saw him mid round. Comp Sec had to DQ Player B, which was even more awkward when Player B came in and has a score of 42 points, winning the comp of about 72 players by several shots and would have got a nice prize from the sponsor.

Player B was furious, and was close to violently knocking Player A out when he saw him. The whole incident required several people to try and calm things down. Player B then went home, and over the next few days / weeks tried to think of stories that would get him out of DQ (like he was chipping near 4th tee (30 yards away) and thinned shots on to 3rd green. Of course, Player A said this was complete rubbish, he was on the green with a putter, with about 5 or 6 balls putting at the hole.

And when many of the golfers who were around at that time said that DQ was technically the right call and Player B shouldn't have reacted so badly, they are pretty much also sympathetic with him and said they too would have been frustrated. Virtually everyone is more critical of Player A, saying he should have just had a quiet word with Player B when he saw him, and leave it there. Player A felt horrific, and has never reported anyone on anything again.

Btw, I wasn't Player A . But I was on Committee, and it was pretty hectic. It did show the downside of what happens to "snitches" and their reputation. So, I'm not surprised that many people don't snitch on other golfers, particularly their so called friends. It often doesn'f feel like it is worth the hassle for a game you are essentially playing as a hobby.

 

[Backache]

Snitches get stitches innit.

I think that has an element of truth plus the fact that once people feel cynical and disenfranchised by a system and stop believing in it they do not feel any obligation to help police it. Why bother when it is so readily manipulated be others?

 

[Orikoru]

We had a shotgun start comp once. Player A saw Player B (in another group) practicing on the 3rd green, before starting the comp (Player B was due to start on the 4th tee). Midway through the round, Player A reported Player B to the Comp Sec when he saw him mid round. Comp Sec had to DQ Player B, which was even more awkward when Player B came in and has a score of 42 points, winning the comp of about 72 players by several shots and would have got a nice prize from the sponsor.

Player B was furious, and was close to violently knocking Player A out when he saw him. The whole incident required several people to try and calm things down. Player B then went home, and over the next few days / weeks tried to think of stories that would get him out of DQ (like he was chipping near 4th tee (30 yards away) and thinned shots on to 3rd green. Of course, Player A said this was complete rubbish, he was on the green with a putter, with about 5 or 6 balls putting at the hole.

And when many of the golfers who were around at that time said that DQ was technically the right call and Player B shouldn't have reacted so badly, they are pretty much also sympathetic with him and said they too would have been frustrated. Virtually everyone is more critical of Player A, saying he should have just had a quiet word with Player B when he saw him, and leave it there. Player A felt horrific, and has never reported anyone on anything again.

Btw, I wasn't Player A . But I was on Committee, and it was pretty hectic. It did show the downside of what happens to "snitches" and their reputation. So, I'm not surprised that many people don't snitch on other golfers, particularly their so called friends. It often doesn'f feel like it is worth the hassle for a game you are essentially playing as a hobby.

I wouldn't even go that far. Just ignore it. We are amateur players, do we really think him having a couple of putts on a green he's played probably hundreds of times is going to affect his round that much? I imagine he was just doing it there because of the shotgun start placing him a long way from the actual practise green.

 

[AddisonRoad]

He has no score differentials for casual rounds. That is why his handicap is as high as it is.

Our solution is simple, several of us have told him in no uncertain terms he needs to start submitting scores as his hcp is ridiculous. This will avoid the need of having to run the the Handicap Committee and them having to make up a number, after accepting our word for it. Of course, he doesn't have to submit GP scores, but we've also said if he doesn't, it'll no longer be loser buys the coffee or we won't be putting £2 into the pot in a mini roll up if enough turn up. Last year, we already agreed to only play a roll up if he wasn't there.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to play with someone like this, even if they eventually agreed to submit scores and lower their handicap. That behaviour is just selfish, dishonest, and against the spirit of the game. I wouldn't want to associate with someone who's happy winning drinks every weekend in bad faith.

 

[AddisonRoad]

I wouldn't even go that far. Just ignore it. We are amateur players, do we really think him having a couple of putts on a green he's played probably hundreds of times is going to affect his round that much? I imagine he was just doing it there because of the shotgun start placing him a long way from the actual practise green.

I can see how reporting this infraction seems like an overreaction for amateur golf, but when you start letting standards slip, it can really ruin the fundamentals of the game. At the end of the day, margins are usually thin in large competitions, and cheating is cheating. It's especially bad if the player then made up multiple fake stories about why he was on the green — it shows dishonesty.

 

[wjemather]

You mean why do people not report on their mates cheating? Hmmm, I wonder why that is, maybe a clinical psychologist is required on why people do not report the golfers they play with to Committee, that is beyond me

What is cheating? Over a couple of years a player goes from 18 pre WHS to 28. All scores seem fairly genuine over that longer period, but this player now refused to submit scores socially, but rarely plays competitively. Should he be reported for cheating for not entering scores? or, if he does enter a competition, should he be reported for cheating?

Then another player does submit GP scores, but plays badly. Submits a string of scores in the mid to high 80's, when he might have been low 80's to high 70's before. He is missing the odd short putt, and he isn't always taking full care and attention on his pre-shot routine. Is he cheating? Should he take more time? There is no evidence on him purposely missing putts, but should be report him for suspected cheating?

For the first guy, we can encourage him to enter more scores, which we will. For the second guy, I'm not sure we are in a position to ask him to take more time in GP rounds, given that even in competitive rounds most golfers have their moments of rushed and careless golf.

If someone was blatantly and clearly cheating (e.g. submitting false scores), then you'd hope they'd be reported. But then, techncially if they were your mate, would you report them or just tell them to wise up? And if it wasn't a mate, I don't think many people would worry about reporting it.

Wow, that's an awful lot of whataboutery to justify not fulfilling your responsibilities.

Most of us have left school and grown up, so no longer live by the moral code of the playground.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I wouldn't even go that far. Just ignore it. We are amateur players, do we really think him having a couple of putts on a green he's played probably hundreds of times is going to affect his round that much? I imagine he was just doing it there because of the shotgun start placing him a long way from the actual practise green.

It’s the rules

I DQ a player twice because he kept chipping onto the 9th green to practise before a competition

Why ignore rule breaks that are clear ?

 

[Orikoru]

I can see how reporting this infraction seems like an overreaction for amateur golf, but when you start letting standards slip, it can really ruin the fundamentals of the game. At the end of the day, margins are usually thin in large competitions, and cheating is cheating. It's especially bad if the player then made up multiple fake stories about why he was on the green — it shows dishonesty.

Why is it cheating though? He's just having a practise putt before his round like anyone would - but on a green that was next to his shotgun tee so as not to waste time. If I saw that I probably wouldn't even process it as a rule-break, wouldn't cross my mind. It's just a guy putting - it wouldn't occur to me.

 

[Backache]

I can see how reporting this infraction seems like an overreaction for amateur golf, but when you start letting standards slip, it can really ruin the fundamentals of the game. At the end of the day, margins are usually thin in large competitions, and cheating is cheating.

Cheating may be cheating but an infraction of the rules is not necessarily deliberate and cannot be considered to be cheating unless it was a known infraction intended to benefit.

 

[jim8flog]

You haven't????? I think you forgot someone? Someone we play with at my club who has gone up 8-10 shots and now always has his coffee bought for him as it is loser buys the drinks

I would add to that guy, another chap who didn't like a lot of people he had to play with in handicap drawn comps. So, in about 2-3 weeks he submitted a load of general play scores scores, course handicap went from around 8 to 11-12, and now he plays with people he is happier with.

I presume the first guy did that over a couple of years CAPS stop it from happening quickly and you cannot go up more than 5 in a rolling year.

Just read you later replies to others

 

[wjemather]

He has no score differentials for casual rounds. That is why his handicap is as high as it is.

Our solution is simple, several of us have told him in no uncertain terms he needs to start submitting scores as his hcp is ridiculous. This will avoid the need of having to run the the Handicap Committee and them having to make up a number, after accepting our word for it. Of course, he doesn't have to submit GP scores, but we've also said if he doesn't, it'll no longer be loser buys the coffee or we won't be putting £2 into the pot in a mini roll up if enough turn up. Last year, we already agreed to only play a roll up if he wasn't there.

No committee should be making up anything. They should be suspending the handicap pending submission of an appropriate number of scores.

 

[Imurg]

I presume the first guy did that over a couple of years CAPS stop it from happening quickly and you cannot go up more than 5 in a rolling year.

Just read you later replies to others

5 shots on my index would give me 6 extra shots from the White tees.....I feel I could be quite "competitive" off 13....

 

[jim8flog]

As I've said, it's easier to submit a card on the app than it is to fill out an actual card, get it signed, and post it - plus the physical card is more likely to be checked. As others have said - I could sit in my lounge and submit a bogus card in the app if I wanted to.

I don't know about the other apps because I tend to use MyEG and everyone has access to it anyway, so not sure the relevance of what you ask.

The advice give to us by county was to only bother to check 1 in 10 cards because of the amount that were being submitted on a daily basis.

 

[AddisonRoad]

Why is it cheating though? He's just having a practise putt before his round like anyone would - but on a green that was next to his shotgun tee so as not to waste time. If I saw that I probably wouldn't even process it as a rule-break, wouldn't cross my mind. It's just a guy putting - it wouldn't occur to me.

You're not allowed to practice on an in-play green right before a competition. Fair enough if a player doesn't know the rule, but they shouldn't react poorly to finding out it was against the rules. Player B is just protecting the field, and Player A should have been more aware. The fact they denied doing it and made up multiple stories about it makes it worse.