WHS - Has it made it easier for Handicap “manipulation”

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AddisonRoad

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Cheating may be cheating but an infraction of the rules is not necessarily deliberate and cannot be considered to be cheating unless it was a known infraction intended to benefit.

True - but denying it or making up alternative stories proves the player is dishonest (if Player B was telling the truth about the infraction).
 

jim8flog

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I thought in the old system, after 7 0.1's you were eligible for a review and another 1.0 back. It was subject to a few restrictions like no cuts in the last 12 months iirc. So for a player who'd done the bare minimum to keep a "c" handicap for a year or two, and then decides they want a few extra shots - 7 bad rounds = 0.7. Review = 1.0, another 7 bad rounds =0.7 then maybe another review = 0.1. A possible 2.4 or 3.4 shots back for 14 rounds in the old system.

As for apps - it was always going to happen, especially with Covid happening about the same time.

As has been said the the continuous review was a bit more complicated than that and included a flow chart for it's use I reckon we only put about 4 players up under that system, funnily enough including me.
 

Backache

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True - but denying it or making up alternative stories proves the player is dishonest (if Player B was telling the truth about the infraction).
I'm not suggesting the player behaved well particularly in his response but I can see why people might ignore the infraction as it may not be deliberate and probably benefits him little.
 

Swango1980

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I wouldn't even go that far. Just ignore it. We are amateur players, do we really think him having a couple of putts on a green he's played probably hundreds of times is going to affect his round that much? I imagine he was just doing it there because of the shotgun start placing him a long way from the actual practise green.
That was a common view expressed by many who commented on it
 

jim8flog

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Y

What is cheating? Over a couple of years a player goes from 18 pre WHS to 28.

I know a lot of guys in that situation. It was widely remarked that a lot of mid to high handicap players would go up due to the different method of calculating handicaps and loads of player had handicaps that they could not play to under the UHS.
 

Swango1980

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To be honest, I wouldn't want to play with someone like this, even if they eventually agreed to submit scores and lower their handicap. That behaviour is just selfish, dishonest, and against the spirit of the game. I wouldn't want to associate with someone who's happy winning drinks every weekend in bad faith.
Well, as you see from our reaction, we are on edge. But, he's actually a nice guy. The reason he hasn't submitted scores is because he isn't available to play many comps (family duties), and when he plays socially, he has a perception that any time he has a card in his hand, he crumbles. So, one way to put it I guess, he isn't doing it from a bad place. He isn't deviously keeping it that high so he can win comps and win big money in social play, albeit the result is exactly that, he is almost unbeatable socially.

But, when he drinks the coffee we buy him, there is a certain feeling of frustration against him, and hence I think we've now managed to convince him he needs to change his ways
 

Swango1980

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Wow, that's an awful lot of whataboutery to justify not fulfilling your responsibilities.

Most of us have left school and grown up, so no longer live by the moral code of the playground.
I can't help that you live your life by a textbook, and don't undertstand what it is actually like in the real world.

"Cheating" isn't black and white to most people for every single scenario. And it is clear that many people don't go running to the Committee anytime they suspect someone has submitted a few bad scores and might have done a bit better, or put a bit more effort in.
 

Swango1980

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No committee should be making up anything. They should be suspending the handicap pending submission of an appropriate number of scores.
hahahahaha

You'd be an awful handicap secretary. Suspending handicaps when a player hasn't submitted enough scores, on the heresy of one person thinking a player should be off a lower handicap. WHS tells us that once you have a handicap, you have that handicap regardless of how often you play. And here you are, wanting to suspend a players handicap because they've not submitted enough scores. Good luck with that.
 

jim8flog

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He has no score differentials for casual rounds. That is why his handicap is as high as it is.

Our solution is simple, several of us have told him in no uncertain terms he needs to start submitting scores as his hcp is ridiculous. This will avoid the need of having to run the the Handicap Committee and them having to make up a number, after accepting our word for it. Of course, he doesn't have to submit GP scores, but we've also said if he doesn't, it'll no longer be loser buys the coffee or we won't be putting £2 into the pot in a mini roll up if enough turn up. Last year, we already agreed to only play a roll up if he wasn't there.

One of the swindles I play in has introduced a rule that you must submit a GP card to win the kitty. If you do not do one you can still go in to the kitty and some do that just to be more social.
It was introduced primarily because of one player that kept coming in with 40+ points but would never do any cards.

He eventually got a 5 shot cut in the annual review based upon the scores in that and another swindle.
 

Swango1980

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One of the swindles I play in has introduced a rule that you must submit a GP card to win the kitty. If you do not do one you can still go in to the kitty and some do that just to be more social.
It was introduced primarily because of one player that kept coming in with 40+ points but would never do any cards.

He eventually got a 5 shot cut in the annual review based upon the scores in that and another swindle.
Last year, I did say I wouldn't enter any £2 roll ups unless everyone submitted their score. There were one or two others who were on good form, but didn't want to submit scores and risk getting a cut before an official competition. As it was frustrating watching them sometimes submit good scores and not get cut (whereas if I had managed a good score, I would get cut), I felt it was a good rule to adopt. And I think most of them are on board now, because now they know what it feels like when they get battered about the chap I was talking about :)
 

wjemather

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I can't help that you live your life by a textbook, and don't undertstand what it is actually like in the real world.

"Cheating" isn't black and white to most people for every single scenario. And it is clear that many people don't go running to the Committee anytime they suspect someone has submitted a few bad scores and might have done a bit better, or put a bit more effort in.
Again with the whataboutery.

hahahahaha

You'd be an awful handicap secretary. Suspending handicaps when a player hasn't submitted enough scores, on the heresy (hearsay?) of one person thinking a player should be off a lower handicap. WHS tells us that once you have a handicap, you have that handicap regardless of how often you play. And here you are, wanting to suspend a players handicap because they've not submitted enough scores. Good luck with that.
You've been describing a group of people, not just one person, who see there is an issue with someone's handicap, have confronted that person, and the issue has not been resolved.
You are completely misunderstanding WHS if you think players are free to knowingly keep and use an inaccurate handicap index. Rule 1.3 and Appendix A, covering responsibilities, are most relevant here.
 
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Orikoru

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You're not allowed to practice on an in-play green right before a competition. Fair enough if a player doesn't know the rule, but they shouldn't react poorly to finding out it was against the rules. Player B is just protecting the field, and Player A should have been more aware. The fact they denied doing it and made up multiple stories about it makes it worse.
I'd be fuming if someone reported me on that as well, because it's a lame rule to get a DQ for - probably a rule quite a lot of people wouldn't know about since you normally wouldn't do it anyway. But I do agree with you on the last part - trying to lie your way out of it is pointless, just have to take it on the chin and learn for next time.
 

wjemather

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I'd be fuming if someone reported me on that as well, because it's a lame rule to get a DQ for - probably a rule quite a lot of people wouldn't know about since you normally wouldn't do it anyway. But I do agree with you on the last part - trying to lie your way out of it is pointless, just have to take it on the chin and learn for next time.
Practicing on the course is one of the basic rules that everyone should be aware of. Anyone getting DQ'd for it should only be fuming with themselves.
 
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I'd be fuming if someone reported me on that as well, because it's a lame rule to get a DQ for - probably a rule quite a lot of people wouldn't know about since you normally wouldn't do it anyway. But I do agree with you on the last part - trying to lie your way out of it is pointless, just have to take it on the chin and learn for next time.

It’s a basic rule that anyone playing in comps should know - you can’t practice on the course before playing a strokeplay event
 

AddisonRoad

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I'd be fuming if someone reported me on that as well, because it's a lame rule to get a DQ for - probably a rule quite a lot of people wouldn't know about since you normally wouldn't do it anyway. But I do agree with you on the last part - trying to lie your way out of it is pointless, just have to take it on the chin and learn for next time.

It does seem like a harsh rule, but practising on the course before a competition gives an advantage due to the pin position. You're right that the player has likely putt on the green 100s of times, but having knowledge of break on a specific pin position directly before a round is an unfair advantage.
 

Swango1980

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Again with the whataboutery.


You've been describing a group of people, not just one person, who see there is an issue with someone's handicap, have confronted that person, and the issue has not been resolved.
You are completely misunderstanding WHS if you think players are free to keep and use an inaccurate handicap index. Rule 1.3 and Appendix A, covering responsibilities, are most relevant here.
Rule 1.3 isn't really being broken. There are many many players who never submit social scores, yet play a lot of social golf by the rules. I've never heard of a handicap committee suspending their handicaps because they are not submitting those scores, and thus not providing reasonable evidence of their ability. I'm sure many of these players don't have an accurate handicap. Some might be too high, maybe some too low. But I suspect it is rare that the people they play with report them to Committee, especially if they thought the action of the Committee would be to suspend their friends handicap altogether.

I've seen plenty of people rush shots, and often felt they could have done better had they taken more care. But I've never know a Committee to suspend a players handicap for rushing and missing a short putt, because they ruled they didn't attempt to make the best possible score?

Maybe I'm in a minority. But, if you are saying Committees regularly suspend player handicaps because it was reported to them that a player was shooting good social scores, it confirms I've done the right thing in not reporting to Committee. Instead, by speaking to the guy we play with, and encouraging him to submit more scores, has saved everyone the grief of the law :)
 

Orikoru

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It’s a basic rule that anyone playing in comps should know - you can’t practice on the course before playing a strokeplay event
That's fine but he probably just absent-mindedly dropped a couple of balls and had a putt while he was waiting for the event to start. It's hardly a callous attempt to cheat the field is it? He's just made a little blunder.

Anyway, this isn't what the thread is about so let's drop it.
 

Orikoru

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It does seem like a harsh rule, but practising on the course before a competition gives an advantage due to the pin position. You're right that the player has likely putt on the green 100s of times, but having knowledge of break on a specific pin position directly before a round is an unfair advantage.
I'd never remember it in four hour's time when I actually got to that hole. :LOL:
 
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