WHS - Has it made it easier for Handicap “manipulation”

[wjemather]

Rule 1.3 isn't really being broken. There are many many players who never submit social scores, yet play a lot of social golf by the rules. I've never heard of a handicap committee suspending their handicaps because they are not submitting those scores, and thus not providing reasonable evidence of their ability. I'm sure many of these players don't have an accurate handicap. Some might be too high, maybe some too low. But I suspect it is rare that the people they play with report them to Committee, especially if they thought the action of the Committee would be to suspend their friends handicap altogether.

I've seen plenty of people rush shots, and often felt they could have done better had they taken more care. But I've never know a Committee to suspend a players handicap for rushing and missing a short putt, because they ruled they didn't attempt to make the best possible score?

Maybe I'm in a minority. But, if you are saying Committees regularly suspend player handicaps because it was reported to them that a player was shooting good social scores, it confirms I've done the right thing in not reporting to Committee. Instead, by speaking to the guy we play with, and encouraging him to submit more scores, has saved everyone the grief of the law

If you think Rule 1.3 is not being broken by someone who is refusing to "submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability", you are clearly not understanding the rule.
The vast majority of players who are not submitting scores are not then knowingly using their false handicap to cheat others out of prizes, money (or coffee).
Suspended handicaps are restored when sufficient scores have been submitted to provide an accurate index.

And again with whataboutery and the distraction of dreaming up entirely different scenarios that are of zero relevance to the one under discussion.

As you have said several times, your encouragement has failed.

 

[Swango1980]

If you think Rule 1.3 is not being broken by someone who is refusing to "submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability", you are clearly not understanding the rule.
The vast majority of players who are not submitting scores are not then knowingly using their false handicap to cheat others out of prizes, money (or coffee).
Suspended handicaps are restored when sufficient scores have been submitted to provide an accurate index.

And again with whataboutery and the distraction of dreaming up entirely different scenarios that are of zero relevance to the one under discussion.

As you have said several times, your encouragement has failed.

Dreaming up scenarios? What has been dreamt up?

Our encouragement has started over this winter, whilst he has been drinking his prized coffee. Once we are allowed to start submitting scores again, we will see how well our encouragement worked. Too premature to assume it has failed.

And, as I said, I know of plenty of people who do not submit scores during the many rounds of social golf they play. There have been people in these forums who tell us they do not submit scores, and think it is ridiculous for them to be expected to. The vast majority of people will use these handicaps in someway. Whether it is for drinks, a few quid or just bragging rights, they will ultimately be comparing their scores to others they play with. So, they are "cheating" in that respect by using a "false" handicap to use in calculating their score?

For the vast majority of roll ups I played in for the first few years of WHS, only 2 or 3 out of a dozen or so would submit a score. Most others couldn't be bothered, or didn't want a social round to impact their handicap. Even now, although we play fewer roll ups due to this one chap, we will all still tend to play for the coffee in each group. It isn't just him that doesn't submit his scores. Well over half of us, when the course is acceptable for handicap, do not submit scores. However, no one is bothered too much. One or 2 might haave a handicap that would be 1, maybe 2 shots different if they submitted all their scores. But, as they are in the right ball park, no one kicks up a fuss and reports them. I'm not sure that is "cheating" and they should be reported?

 

[Backache]

If you think Rule 1.3 is not being broken by someone who is refusing to "submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability", you are clearly not understanding the rule.
The vast majority of players who are not submitting scores are not then knowingly using their false handicap to cheat others out of prizes, money (or coffee).
Suspended handicaps are restored when sufficient scores have been submitted to provide an accurate index.

And again with whataboutery and the distraction of dreaming up entirely different scenarios that are of zero relevance to the one under discussion.

As you have said several times, your encouragement has failed.

If the idea of the WHS is to increase participation I suspect suspending players for not putting in social sores is the wrong way of going about it. I never put in a social score because I neither try on all holes nor play to the rules of golf when playing socially.I suspect this is true for many golfers.

 

[NearHull]

We were advised by EG to get members to use their App rather than those of the ISVs as it had more and better security features. One of these, the geo location of the attester as well as the player, was promised but never arrived.

I was advised today by a source within the EG organisation that it is on its way.

 

[wjemather]

If the idea of the WHS is to increase participation I suspect suspending players for not putting in social scores is the wrong way of going about it. I never put in a social score because I neither try on all holes nor play to the rules of golf when playing socially.I suspect this is true for many golfers.

No-one has suggested doing that.
What was suggested is suspending the handicaps of players who, having been advised, still refuse to submit scores in order to retain a favourable handicap.

 

[Swango1980]

No-one has suggested doing that.
What was suggested is suspending the handicaps of players who, having been advised, still refuse to submit scores in order to retain a favourable handicap.

I didn't say the player I specifically spoke about was not submitting scores purely to retain a favourable handicap.

I said they didn't submit scores because they can't play many comps, and when they play socially having a card in their had has a negative effect on them mentally, or so they believe. So, the reason has nothing really to do with keeping a high handicap, but that is the result.

I also said I have known many people to have a comp on Sunday and play socially on Saturday, for example. The score they are going to lose is a bad one, but as they don't want to risk putting in a good score and getting a cut for Sunday, they don't register Saturdays round. Yet, if their 20th oldest score is a very good one, they will register for the Saturday round as they are unlikely to beat it, and likely to get an increase. Should this behaviour be reported? I certainly wouldn't, I don't think players should be forced to submit scores socially, but it is another method in which players can manipulate their handicap just before a round, depending on what their 20th oldest score is at the time.

 

[rulefan]

I didn't say the player I specifically spoke about was not submitting scores purely to retain a favourable handicap.

I said they didn't submit scores because they can't play many comps, and when they play socially having a card in their had has a negative effect on them mentally, or so they believe. So, the reason has nothing really to do with keeping a high handicap, but that is the result.

I also said I have known many people to have a comp on Sunday and play socially on Saturday, for example. The score they are going to lose is a bad one, but as they don't want to risk putting in a good score and getting a cut for Sunday, they don't register Saturdays round. Yet, if their 20th oldest score is a very good one, they will register for the Saturday round as they are unlikely to beat it, and likely to get an increase. Should this behaviour be reported? I certainly wouldn't, I don't think players should be forced to submit scores socially, but it is another method in which players can manipulate their handicap just before a round, depending on what their 20th oldest score is at the time.

Are there really that many players around that only play for pots and manipulate their 20th score? In my experience by far the majority play because the enjoy the game.

 

[Backsticks]

Are there really that many players around that only play for pots and manipulate their 20th score?

In my experience by far the majority play because the enjoy the game.

Not many. And some will only do it rarely.

That is undoubtedly the case.

But even if only an exceptional 1% are manipulated, that does affect and raise the hackles of the 99% that dont manipulate their hi. So its butterfly effect.

 

[clubchamp98]

We were warned by people in other countries that this system can cause problems.!

we had a lot of high scores in comps.

You only have to look at some of these posts to see something is not right.

But if you give a cheat a way to cheat simply by uploading his own card we should not be surprised if they take advantage.

Our comp participants have gone down ,mainly single figures they are voting with their feet.

We were also assured on here that comittiees workload would not rise

 

[IanM]

In my experience by far the majority play because the enjoy the game.

And you'd be right.

But, there were 2 folk who definitely fiddle their handicaps present this week..... they won by miles and went home with the prizes.

The others (the vast majority) played properly and had no chance of winning before even hitting a ball.

This thread is the wrong way round.

The question should be, "if you don't think cheating is now easier, why don't you?"

 

[BiMGuy]

The question should be, "if you don't think cheating is now easier, why don't you?"

or. “If you know people are cheating. What have you done about it?”

 

[chrisd]

Most of my social golf is match play of sorts, it is a different mindset and way of playing, so I'm not putting in cards for that. I do play in the many competitions that the club run in the main season and my cards always go in

 

[Backache]

If part of the purpose of the introduction of the WHS was to increase participation it has been a resounding failure at least locally . There are significantly fewer medal entrants than previously and many people appear disillusioned and distrustful of the WHS.
It appears to have been largely derived from American golf where club competitions are relatively uncommon and is distrusted in areas where club competitions are common.

 

[Backsticks]

If part of the purpose of the introduction of the WHS was to increase participation it has been a resounding failure at least locally . There are significantly fewer medal entrants than previously and many people appear disillusioned and distrustful of the WHS.
It appears to have been largely derived from American golf where club competitions are relatively uncommon and is distrusted in areas where club competitions are common.

While it is discussed here, and among some golfer, I dont think you can extrapolate your own experience of fewer medal entrants to be a universal rule.
Our club has seen no change in participation interest in medals or competition. (in fact, absolute participation is up due to a covid boost to membership numbers). And certainly no widespread, and to my personal knowledge, even isolated cases, of people not entering comps due to any concern about an inequity inteoduced by WHS. Most regular weekend warriers dont give it a second thought. They still have a handicap. They play matches, enter club comoetitions with it, and play friendly matches for a fiver with it. Its a non issue for 99.9%. They wouldnt even know what you are talking about if you asked them what are their issues with WHS.

 

[wjemather]

And you'd be right.

But, there were 2 folk who definitely fiddle their handicaps present this week..... they won by miles and went home with the prizes.

The others (the vast majority) played properly and had no chance of winning before even hitting a ball.

This thread is the wrong way round.

The question should be, "if you don't think cheating is now easier, why don't you?"

If it's definite, then why has nothing been done about it, and why are they being allowed to collect prizes?

 

[IanM]

If it's definite, then why has nothing been done about it, and why are they being allowed to collect prizes?

WHY INDEED???????

 

[IanM]

or. “If you know people are cheating. What have you done about it?”

I've written to their clubs. Won't go into detail about other stuff on here
but I haven't been idle.

Will update if anything happens.

 

[Alan Clifford]

We were advised by EG to get members to use their App rather than those of the ISVs as it had more and better security features. One of these, the geo location of the attester as well as the player, was promised but never arrived.

They shouldn't be using geolocation on a 'phone for such purposes. You can tell your 'phone to use a "mock location app".

 

[IanM]

If folk exist in a utopian world. where everyone is honest, and all clubs have an abundance of diligent folk on every committee, the goings on in the rest of the universe must be terribly hard to understand.

 

[clubchamp98]

Are there really that many players around that only play for pots and manipulate their 20th score? In my experience by far the majority play because the enjoy the game.

Are there really that many golfers who play Handicap competition abroad that warranted a World system..?