WHS and par/bogey comps

[Black Buzzer]

Sounds like I’ve messed up today. On 2 or 3 occasions I picked up as soon as I knew I had a minus. Seems I should have putted out as this would have a negative effect for handicap purposes.

I don't think you did, though I think I'm a lone voice. Rule 21.3.

 

[Black Buzzer]

Apologies if this has been asked before. Bogey comp today, scores being processed and results will appear on SGU app overnight.

My question... Should scores for handicaps be based on the bogey comp rules (as I think they would have done in the past) or just on scratch/stableford?

If stableford, I would be disadvantaged by 2 strokes as I was -2 with bogey scoring but 32 points with Stableford.

Thanks for any insights.

Hi - Did you manage to get anything definitive on this one? I have just put a comment at the end of the thread, but it seems to have got off topic further down. I think it makes no sense to play a stableford or medal round in a matchplay competition. If you have ten feet for a half you want to go for it and not worry about the one coming back. However - if you look at Rule 21.3, it's fairly clear that the R&A think that too. Make your own mind up, but I reckon it's saying 'pick up once you've lost the hole, mark a net bogey and move on'. It balances out the times you have a birdie putt but two for the hole, so it's probably within one or two shots for most of us. I finished 1 down on Saturday playing off 8. I ended up signing for a 79 (par 71). There were a couple of holes I picked up and marked a net bogey because I'd tried to play a hero shot, like I would have done at matchplay when my opponent was in good shape, that didn't come off, but at least I wasn't playing a boring stableford. In both cases I probably would have been a shot better off if I'd played conservatively, but at least I was playing in the spirit of the competition.

 

[wjemather]

I don't think you did, though I think I'm a lone voice. Rule 21.3.

There is a difference between the requirements of the rules of golf and those of the rules of handicapping - (unless MLS is in use) the latter requires continuance of play until nett double bogey (with respect to Course Handicap) has been reached, irrespective of the former.

 

[Black Buzzer]

There is a difference between the requirements of the rules of golf and those of the rules of handicapping - (unless MLS is in use) the latter requires continuance of play until nett double bogey (with respect to Course Handicap) has been reached, irrespective of the former.

That's interesting. What's MLS? But in Rule 21.3 (b) it's quite explicit that there is no penalty under Rule 3.3b for returning a hole score lower than the actual score as long as it has no effect on the result of the hole. If that contradicts the rules of handicapping, where on earth does that leave the poor player?

 

[wjemather]

That's interesting. What's MLS? But in Rule 21.3 (b) it's quite explicit that there is no penalty under Rule 3.3b for returning a hole score lower than the actual score as long as it has no effect on the result of the hole. If that contradicts the rules of handicapping, where on earth does that leave the poor player?

MLS=Most Likely Score; it's a procedure in the rules of handicapping adopted in some jurisdictions, including the USGA, that allows for scores to be submitted for handicapping in formats where all holes are not routinely completed (e.g. matchplay, 4BBB, etc.).
Continuing to play out a hole once no score can be recorded for the competition (or the hole is lost) is permitted per the rules of golf, and required by the rules of handicapping in the absence of MLS until nett double bogey is reached.

 

[D-S]

There is a difference between the requirements of the rules of golf and those of the rules of handicapping - (unless MLS is in use) the latter requires continuance of play until nett double bogey (with respect to Course Handicap) has been reached, irrespective of the former.

Am I right in saying that as we are not using CR-par nett double bogey based on your Course handicaps is not necessarily enough as there may be some holes on courses where the CR is significantly over par where you should still putt out as you may be 'getting more shots'?

 

[rulefan]

Am I right in saying that as we are not using CR-par nett double bogey based on your Course handicaps is not necessarily enough as there may be some holes on courses where the CR is significantly over par where you should still putt out as you may be 'getting more shots'?

But will it make any difference to the result as all players get that adjustment? Further, will it affect your handicap as CR-Par plays no part in the differential calculation?

 

[D-S]

But will it make any difference to the result as all players get that adjustment? Further, will it affect your handicap as CR-Par plays no part in the differential calculation?

It won't make any difference to the result but you may find that players not having a shot with their Course Handicap would go for a long putt for a half but miss and then pick up as they lost the hole in the comp but actually had a shot for handicap purposes.
If for example a player off 0 (therefore had 0 shots Course Handicap; but for example CR was 73 and par 70) he then picks up on SI 1,2 and 3 holes as he has made bogey so he is given NR for these holes where he could have holed out for bogey would that not make a difference in handicap calculation?

 

[wjemather]

It won't make any difference to the result but you may find that players not having a shot with their Course Handicap would go for a long putt for a half but miss and then pick up as they lost the hole in the comp but actually had a shot for handicap purposes.
If for example a player off 0 (therefore had 0 shots Course Handicap; but for example CR was 73 and par 70) he then picks up on SI 1,2 and 3 holes as he has made bogey so he is given NR for these holes where he could have holed out for bogey would that not make a difference in handicap calculation?

Nett double bogey is whatever your Course Handicap says it is.
If we were using CR-Par, then Course Handicaps would be different on occasion, and the resultant nett double bogey scores would be different.

In your example, as we don't use CR-Par, the player would be given double bogeys for SIs 1, 2 and 3 if he doesn't hole out for bogey (Course Handicap is 0); if we did use CR-Par, he would be given bogey for those holes (i.e. nett double bogey due to his Course Handicap of 3).

 

[D-S]

Nett double bogey is whatever your Course Handicap says it is.
If we were using CR-Par, then Course Handicaps would be different on occasion, and the resultant nett double bogey scores would be different.

In your example, as we don't use CR-Par, the player would be given double bogeys for SIs 1, 2 and 3 if he doesn't hole out for bogey (Course Handicap is 0); if we did use CR-Par, he would be given bogey for those holes (i.e. nett double bogey due to his Course Handicap of 3).

So if we used CR-Par he would not pick up, he would hole out for bogey on those holes and get halves on those holes.
Now as we do not use CR-Par he does not get shots therefore thinks he has no need to hole out for bogey as with 0 shots he has lost the hole so he picks up (quite correctly in terms of the competition) and is given nett double bogey. So with CR-Par he would sign for a score 3 shots lower than in our way of computing CH which could have a material effect on his HI.

 

[wjemather]

So if we used CR-Par he would not pick up, he would hole out for bogey on those holes and get halves on those holes.
Now as we do not use CR-Par he does not get shots therefore thinks he has no need to hole out for bogey as with 0 shots he has lost the hole so he picks up (quite correctly in terms of the competition) and is given nett double bogey. So with CR-Par he would sign for a score 3 shots lower than in our way of computing CH which could have a material effect on his HI.

Yes. However, per the rules of handicapping, he should continue play of all holes until nett double bogey is reached even if the format of play allows picking up before then. Note: the same applies to Stableford where the Playing Handicap of 95% means fewer strokes are received for the competition than for handicapping.

 

[D-S]

Yes. However, per the rules of handicapping, he should continue play of all holes until nett double bogey is reached even if the format of play allows picking up before then. Note: the same applies to Stableford where the Playing Handicap of 95% means fewer strokes are received for the competition than for handicapping.

So in this instance on stroke one let’s say it is a par 4, if he picks up after his 5th shot as he believes he has now reached nett double bogey (his best score would be a 6) should he really have holed out for a 6 as this is a nett bogey?

 

[Crow]

Yes. However, per the rules of handicapping, he should continue play of all holes until nett double bogey is reached even if the format of play allows picking up before then. Note: the same applies to Stableford where the Playing Handicap of 95% means fewer strokes are received for the competition than for handicapping.

Did that change when WHS came in?
Prior to that it was done on holes up or down which effectively became your nett score to par, eg +4 after 18 holes became 4 under par.

 

[wjemather]

So in this instance on stroke one let’s say it is a par 4, if he picks up after his 5th shot as he believes he has now reached nett double bogey (his best score would be a 6) should he really have holed out for a 6 as this is a nett bogey?

For handicapping purposes, players should always hole out if they can still make a nett bogey (or better) unless MLS is in operation.

 

[wjemather]

Did that change when WHS came in?
Prior to that it was done on holes up or down which effectively became your nett score to par, eg +4 after 18 holes became 4 under par.

Under UHS, par/bogey format scores were directly converted to nett differentials.

 

[Crow]

Under UHS, par/bogey format scores were directly converted to nett differentials.

Thanks, I must have missed it when that was highlighted in the changes.

 

[D-S]

For handicapping purposes, players should always hole out if they can still make a nett bogey (or better) unless MLS is in operation.

Do you mean nett bogey in terms of course handicap (e.g. for a 5 in my example above) or nett bogey for handicap purposes (e.g. a 6 in my example above)?

 

[wjemather]

Do you mean nett bogey in terms of course handicap (e.g. for a 5 in my example above) or nett bogey for handicap purposes (e.g. a 6 in my example above)?

"in terms of Course Handicap" and "for handicap purposes" are the same thing.

 

[Orikoru]

I played a bogey comp in July and it went on my record. Luckily I putted out most holes anyway, otherwise I'm not sure how that would work. As in you could pick the ball up because you've already lost the hole, but in normal golf terms you could have had a putt for nett bogey? Which would then go down as a nett double on your record.

Sorry I haven't read all the posts but I can see a few posts higher on this page someone touching upon the same issue. I guess you need to know in advance if it's going to be a qualifier and ensure you putt everything out.

 

[Crow]

IMHO the change since WHS undermines a key fundamental of the bogey competition format, which is match play against the course.

Under UHS if I had a putt for a half I would go for it with no fear about the return, now I'm going to be thinking about making the return.... might as well just play Stableford.

Don't think I'll bother with bogey comps any more.