WHS and club completions

[rulie]

National authorities here, and their overaching body, dont seem to know what each is up to is my point. Even different message from within a single national authority. It does open the door to any clubs to try the new options this year anyway, so interesting to see how many more will jump the gun. Would only be a good thing - more trial data.

Then, as you say, it's not a World Handicapping System problem.

 

[D-S]

National authorities here, and their overaching body, dont seem to know what each is up to is my point. Even different message from within a single national authority. It does open the door to any clubs to try the new options this year anyway, so interesting to see how many more will jump the gun. Would only be a good thing - more trial data.

As previously said, clubs using different allowances won’t add any new data so it would be a total waste of time.
Also totally against current rules.
If these same clubs decide to use 100% for all singles strokeplay and 90% for for 4BB, how exactly will this be a ‘good thing’ for the people who have spent their time and money playing in these competitions?

 

[Dunesman]

Then, as you say, it's not a World Handicapping System problem.

It is a WHS problem. You are splitting hairs that is nonsense in practice. Golfers play according to the WHS. It doesnt matter that there are multiple bodies involved. Your objection would be like telling someone with car trouble
- no, your car is fine. As you say, its an issue with the injectors. They are by Bosch, so it's not an Audi problem. Dont complain about Audi.
- but my Audi is faulty !
- no, your Audi has no problem

Should it be clearer : "you dont play golf according to WHS, you play according to WHS-GolfGB&I-England Golf" ?

 

[Backache]

As previously said, clubs using different allowances won’t add any new data so it would be a total waste of time.
Also totally against current rules.
If these same clubs decide to use 100% for all singles strokeplay and 90% for for 4BB, how exactly will this be a ‘good thing’ for the people who have spent their time and money playing in these competitions?

We don't know if they'll add new data or not and it depends on what data you are looking for.

It is at least theoretically possible though not likely that different handicap incentives will provide different scoring patterns.

More pertinently, they may provide different participation rates.

 

[Dunesman]

Question for the rulesies.

With GP and Comp scores having (with the few controversial, but niche exceptions) equal validity, why have we a distinction between general play (small letters) rounds, and competition rounds, where one can opt beforehand for a gp round to be not a counting round (by doing nothing effectively), yet one cannot play a competition round without it being a qualifying score ?

 

[rulie]

Question for the rulesies.

With GP and Comp scores having (with the few controversial, but niche exceptions) equal validity, why have we a distinction between general play (small letters) rounds, and competition rounds, where one can opt beforehand for a gp round to be not a counting round (by doing nothing effectively), yet one cannot play a competition round without it being a qualifying score ?

What is a "qualifying score"? What is it qualifying for?

 

[Dunesman]

What is a "qualifying score"? What is it qualifying for?

Handicap record and derivation.
'Counting' maybe the term ?
Or 'qualifying' as a valid score for handicap adjustment.
Qualifying in the Congu sense.

 

[rulie]

Handicap record and derivation.
'Counting' maybe the term ?
Or 'qualifying' as a valid score for handicap adjustment.
Qualifying in the Congu sense.

So a "qualifying" score is just a score that is part of your scoring record and may be one of the 20 scores for your handicap calculation? If so, then aren't GP (or gp) scores "qualifying"?

 

[rulefan]

Question for the rulesies.

With GP and Comp scores having (with the few controversial, but niche exceptions) equal validity, why have we a distinction between general play (small letters) rounds, and competition rounds, where one can opt beforehand for a gp round to be not a counting round (by doing nothing effectively), yet one cannot play a competition round without it being a qualifying score ?

There is a expectation/presumption that in a competition, players will try their best and play strictly to the Rules.
Whereas, there is not necessarily the same expectation in general play. If players don't pre-declare, it may well be that they want to try out new clubs, practice certain skills (or lack of) or take other actions that may involve breaches.
However, returning (pre-declared) general play scores when rules have been deliberately broken is simply cheating.

 

[D-S]

Question for the rulesies.

With GP and Comp scores having (with the few controversial, but niche exceptions) equal validity, why have we a distinction between general play (small letters) rounds, and competition rounds, where one can opt beforehand for a gp round to be not a counting round (by doing nothing effectively), yet one cannot play a competition round without it being a qualifying score ?

I would assume that it is a way of differentiating between rounds which, although not necessarily played to different standards, that may be different in the way that the way they are played, one under the pressure of competition and the other which may be more open to manipulation/falsification.
By highlighting the two types of round this allows committees to distinguish between a players performance in the two formats. If there is manipulation/falsification going on it is likely to occur by misuse of the GP system, so it is useful for committee’s analysis to easily differentiate.
A sensible help for volunteers.

 

[rosecott]

Question for the rulesies.

With GP and Comp scores having (with the few controversial, but niche exceptions) equal validity, why have we a distinction between general play (small letters) rounds, and competition rounds, where one can opt beforehand for a gp round to be not a counting round (by doing nothing effectively), yet one cannot play a competition round without it being a qualifying score ?

It’s really quite simple. I am at a loss to understand what point you are making - perhaps the lower case issue?

From Rules of Handicapping:

“Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play. A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit either a 9-hole or 18-hole acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.”

“The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.”

There is no provision for submitting a General Play score that is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

 

[Dunesman]

It’s really quite simple. I am at a loss to understand what point you are making - perhaps the lower case issue?

From Rules of Handicapping:

“Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play. A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit either a 9-hole or 18-hole acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.”

“The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.”

There is no provision for submitting a General Play score that is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

I am not really asking about the implementation of the rules. They are clear.
Rather, why is there no provision, that I have come across at least, to be able to enter a competition while at the same time not having the score submitted for handicap purposes ?

ie.
“The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players."

On the "may", this appears universal in my experience. Are committees aware it is optional ? Are any clubs offer it ? Do the various sofwares have the facility to permit this selection/nonslection when registering for a competition ?

And then behind that, why has the committee been given the option to adsume for you that you intend to submit an acceptable score. Why not leave to the individual like a non competition round ?

 

[D-S]

I am not really asking about the implementation of the rules. They are clear.
Rather, why is there no provision, that I have come across at least, to be able to enter a competition while at the same time not having the score submitted for handicap purposes ?

ie.
“The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players."

On the "may", this appears universal in my experience. Are committees aware it is optional ? Are any clubs offer it ? Do the various sofwares have the facility to permit this selection/nonslection when registering for a competition ?

And then behind that, why has the committee been given the option to adsume for you that you intend to submit an acceptable score. Why not leave to the individual like a non competition round ?

The ‘may’ in your quote refers to pre registration not to whether the round will be acceptable for handicap or not.

 

[LincolnShep]

I know it’s a trial but surely the data is all there already.

Having a different allowance doesn’t change anyone’s gross scores.

We have the data of millions of rounds in competitions in all formats already, far more than there will be gained in one season in one GB&I country. Surely all you need to do is model the results from existing historical data which already includes a huge variety of formats, field sizes and handicap distribution.
Based on all this existing data you must be able to formulate an allowance to field shape/size suggestion.
I’m really not sure what you can gain from this trial that doesn’t exist in the system covering a far wider and a significantly greater number range of golfers and competitions over a longer period of time.

I can imagine someone at Golf Ireland saying: "We have all the data, we know what the equitable allowances are, but people are still moaning. Just let them do what they like if they think they know better. It won't affect handicapping, just comp results, and the clubs will get the complaints instead of us. Job done."

 

[Dunesman]

The ‘may’ in your quote refers to pre registration not to whether the round will be acceptable for handicap or not.

Not sure that I follow your point.
Anyway, where I was going is, is the solution here, and fully within the existing rules, not to take rollups etc under the umbrella of club control as EG is driving for, yet allow those players who wish to, to be in the competition, but not register their score for handicap purposes. i.e. take the option that clubs have of doing, and not assume pre-registering of a competition entry as an intent to submit a score for handicap purposes ? It is up to the player to then opt in to intent to register a score, not assumed intent.

 

[Dunesman]

I can imagine someone at Golf Ireland saying: "We have all the data, we know what the equitable allowances are, but people are still moaning. Just let them do what they like if they think they know better. It won't affect handicapping, just comp results, and the clubs will get the complaints instead of us. Job done."

You mean Golf GB&I, rather than GI ? GI seem only the guinnee pig of this GolfGB&I change rather than the exclusive designers of it.

 

[D-S]

Not sure that I follow your point.
Anyway, where I was going is, is the solution here, and fully within the existing rules, not to take rollups etc under the umbrella of club control as EG is driving for, yet allow thise players who wish to, to be in the competition, but not register their score for handicap purposes. i.e. take the option that clubs have of doing, and no assume pre-registering of a competition entry as an intent to submit a score for handicap purposes ?

No - you have read this wrong. The 'may' in the rules refers to the discretion has the committee for considering whether the player has pre registered for the round or not. It does not refer to any discretion as to whether the round is a acceptable for handicapping.

 

[Dunesman]

No - you have read this wrong. The 'may' in the rules refers to the discretion has the committee for considering whether the player has pre registered for the round or not. It does not refer to any discretion as to whether the round is a acceptable for handicapping.

Is that not the same thing ? If the committee doesnt consider the player has preregistered (and clearly the committee has the option either way : to consider them preregistered, or, not to consider them preregistered), then it is in the choosing of the player to preregister or not ? The same as they do for any non competition casual round.

 

[D-S]

Is that not the same thing ? If the committee doesnt consider the player has preregistered (and clearly the committee has the option either way : to consider them preregistered, or, not to consider them preregistered), then it is in the choosing of the player to preregister or not ? The same as they do for any non competition casual round.

No, the point you have missed is that is the committee, not the player, deciding or not whether the player has fulfilled the criteria that they have laid down for pre registration. If the player has, in the view of the committee, not pre registered then he is not in the competition at all. It is merely saying that by the act of entering the competition this is saying that they are going to be submitting an acceptable score, they do not need to register their intent to submit a score separately.

 

[D-S]

My club runs quite a few roll up, enter on the day competitions, midweek stablefords and medals and quite a few Sunday comps. The field size for these comps varies from 6 to 90. The field composition and size for these competitions is not know beforehand.

The average golfer (with an HI of 17.7) would have a CH of 21. If the comp has an allowance of 100%, they would have a Playing Handicap of 21 - if the comp has an allowance of 85%, they would have a Playing Handicap of 18.

In these circumstances which allowance should they use for these competitions in future?