Where is it going to come from.

[robinthehood]

It may be that you have a house with a drive where the parked car can be connected to your electricity supply, but are you seriously telling me that there is no massive problem for those living in terraced housing, flats etc.
How many are households like that? I suggest millions.
And do you think that having your car connected to a lamppost whilst you sleep is going to survive the night without some yob(s) having their version of fun?
Until the battery can be taken into the house for charging, then electric will not take off. It is so much better to go the hydrogen route. What puzzles me is that the powers that be don't seem to consider that, nor even discuss the merits of the two systems.
Again, I ask. What is it they are not telling us?

Despite the abundance of hydrogen It's not like oil and natural gas that you can drill for. It has to be produced and that takes a lot of energy.

 

[Wolf]

It may be that you have a house with a drive where the parked car can be connected to your electricity supply, but are you seriously telling me that there is no massive problem for those living in terraced housing, flats etc.
How many are households like that? I suggest millions.
And do you think that having your car connected to a lamppost whilst you sleep is going to survive the night without some yob(s) having their version of fun?
Until the battery can be taken into the house for charging, then electric will not take off. It is so much better to go the hydrogen route. What puzzles me is that the powers that be don't seem to consider that, nor even discuss the merits of the two systems.
Again, I ask. What is it they are not telling us?

Your reply makes absolutely zero sense in quoting my post or at least the part of it you have chosen to quote.

Where in anything you have quoted have I said anything about access to charging points? Answer is nowhere have I said that in what you've quoted nor have I said it at all..

If you bothered to quote the full post you would see I said the infrastructure is basically already there.. Which it is because there's cables running all underground everywhere with electricity in, that they would need tap into. Not at any point have I said about access to charging points though for flats etc, that's clearly an assumption your making.

Yes there will need to be things consider for those in shared accommodation etc, but please if your going to make an overly passive aggressive statement quoting a post at least have the decency to quote the full post for context because it would show your reply is nonsensical because what you wrote in reply is not inferred in anyway in my original comments.

You want to bang on about hydrogen absolutely fine but don't try to twist others posts to make you look better or to make your point .

As for hydrogen it takes so much more energy to create and regardless of choice of fuel electric or hydrogen going back to my original post and its actual point the one you ignored, using either of those fuel types still means households have to find the money to replace their cars at much higher prices which most can't afford.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Despite the abundance of hydrogen It's not like oil and natural gas that you can drill for. It has to be produced and that takes a lot of energy.

Yes, of course. However, it is something we could generate in this country and wouldn’t need the massive international shipping that lithium requires, or the environmental damage done to the production country. Plus the one main difference is that hydrogen is way more plentiful than the lithium they need for the batteries.
As far as car charging points, I have already seen charging point rage in London, and cables being stolen or unplugged.

 

[Imurg]

I can see it now... people fighting in the streets over the last lampost like 2 dogs who need a pee...

 

[Lazkir]

It may be that you have a house with a drive where the parked car can be connected to your electricity supply, but are you seriously telling me that there is no massive problem for those living in terraced housing, flats etc.
How many are households like that? I suggest millions.
And do you think that having your car connected to a lamppost whilst you sleep is going to survive the night without some yob(s) having their version of fun?
Until the battery can be taken into the house for charging, then electric will not take off. It is so much better to go the hydrogen route. What puzzles me is that the powers that be don't seem to consider that, nor even discuss the merits of the two systems.
Again, I ask. What is it they are not telling us?

It takes a lot of electrical power to distil hydrogen, also it's extremely combustible. Far more so than petroleum. Another thing is that it's very difficult to store in a manner that it can be easily accessed safely by the public. One small mistake can lead to a massive explosion, considerably bigger than it's petroleum counterpart. Also the infrastructure requirements would be huge, new hydrogen stations would have to be setup all over the country to higher standards than current fuel stations, and we'd need just as many.
The electric solution is easier, cheaper and safer.
There's no mystery about it.

Edit: Oh, and the electric batteries currently are massive, approx ten times the size of a standard battery.No one is carrying them anywhere!

 

[robinthehood]

Yes, of course. However, it is something we could generate in this country and wouldn’t need the massive international shipping that lithium requires, or the environmental damage done to the production country. Plus the one main difference is that hydrogen is way more plentiful than the lithium they need for the batteries.
As far as car charging points, I have already seen charging point rage in London, and cables being stolen or unplugged.

You assume that the curent model of car use and ownership will stay as it is now. Once driverless cars become a reality on our streets we can really start to look at whether owing a car is quite the necessity that it currently is.
The ability to summon a car from an app on your phone and have it take you where ever will be huge,. Uber on steroids

 

[Lord Tyrion]

You assume that the curent model of car use and ownership will stay as it is now. Once driverless cars become a reality on our streets we can really start to look at whether owing a car is quite the necessity that it currently is.
The ability to summon a car from an app on your phone and have it take you where ever will be huge,. Uber on steroids

You are assuming the public will want driverless cars. I don't know that there is an appetite for them. Equally people like having their own transport available when they need it, the car they like. If they didn't we would all be in taxis now, hiring a car once or twice a year. That is a huge change in culture you are relying on.

 

[clubchamp98]

Agreed, the cost of replacement cells is far beyond what most can afford until a way of making purchase costs affordable I cannot see the feasibility of everyone going all electric

That’s the point imo .
Only the well off will have cars like the old days !
The working man/ women will be on your bike ( electric of course.

 

[clubchamp98]

You assume that the curent model of car use and ownership will stay as it is now. Once driverless cars become a reality on our streets we can really start to look at whether owing a car is quite the necessity that it currently is.
The ability to summon a car from an app on your phone and have it take you where ever will be huge,. Uber on steroids

We have that now there called taxis!

 

[clubchamp98]

? its already there...

No it isn’t the amount of power you need to feed every house in the road will need a massive upgrade in the cables .
Some of those cables have been there since they got rid of gas lights.
They can’t possibly take that load.

 

[robinthehood]

You are assuming the public will want driverless cars. I don't know that there is an appetite for them. Equally people like having their own transport available when they need it, the car they like. If they didn't we would all be in taxis now, hiring a car once or twice a year. That is a huge change in culture you are relying on.

Its already changing, look at the likes of drivenow in London, per minute short term car hire. The large cities will certainly have a huge uptake of driverless and shared cars.

 

[Wolf]

You are assuming the public will want driverless cars. I don't know that there is an appetite for them. Equally people like having their own transport available when they need it, the car they like. If they didn't we would all be in taxis now, hiring a car once or twice a year. That is a huge change in culture you are relying on.

Totally agree the though of a driverless car and not having my own transport on my driveway to go out as and when I want or need to in emergency, no thank you to me that's a backward step for most households.

That’s the point imo .
Only the well off will have cars like the old days !
The working man/ women will be on your bike ( electric of course.

Almost like the return of the class system only the rich can have the means to transport themselves about.

In reality though the cost and effective compulsory need of electric vehicles would cause huge issues for the likes of family's that live in village like me, if we can't afford to buy electric cars but can no longer use petrol, simple things like getting to work or kids to school becomes a serious issue. We have 1 bus (runs on diesel) an hour but only after 7am and nothing after 7pm.

Taxis are not a cost effective answer as nearest major place for work is 15miles so doing that twice a day doesn't keep cost down for families especially considering there are 2 parents need those at different times to different locations.

There's so much more to consider for the consumer than just making cars able to be electric, costs and knock effects for people around the country are a huge contributing factor.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Its already changing, look at the likes of drivenow in London, per minute short term car hire. The large cities will certainly have a huge uptake of driverless and shared cars.

It makes perfect city for people in cities, London in particular. I would never own a car in a city, it would be pretty hellish. However, huge numbers of the population don't live in cities and will have no interest in this.

I don't know about drivenow, I live in the sticks

 

[Dibby]

No it isn’t the amount of power you need to feed every house in the road will need a massive upgrade in the cables .
Some of those cables have been there since they got rid of gas lights.
They can’t possibly take that load.

based on what?

From what I understand to slow charge a Tesla overnight for 10 hours will provide about 150 miles of range and use 4KW of power. This is the same as the average house power usage but would be at off-peak time. Assuming everyone isn't charging their cars all at the same time as what is currently considered peak time, the infrastructure would be mostly sufficient. Add in that some people will charge at work etc.. which are likely to be larger power supplies already, this is a relatively small obstacle compared to some others.

Yes, of course. However, it is something we could generate in this country and wouldn’t need the massive international shipping that lithium requires, or the environmental damage done to the production country. Plus the one main difference is that hydrogen is way more plentiful than the lithium they need for the batteries.
As far as car charging points, I have already seen charging point rage in London, and cables being stolen or unplugged.

This assumes lithium will remain the metal of choice for batteries. We have already gone from Nickel Cadmium to Nickel metal hydride to Lithium Ion, research is already looking into carbon-based batteries, so Lithium will be replaced eventually. Like in my previous post, battery tech can change without infrastructure issues, which is another pro for electric vehicles over hydrogen etc..

 

[clubchamp98]

Totally agree the though of a driverless car and not having my own transport on my driveway to go out as and when I want or need to in emergency, no thank you to me that's a backward step for most households.


Almost like the return of the class system only the rich can have the means to transport themselves about.

In reality though the cost and effective compulsory need of electric vehicles would cause huge issues for the likes of family's that live in village like me, if we can't afford to buy electric cars but can no longer use petrol, simple things like getting to work or kids to school becomes a serious issue. We have 1 bus (runs on diesel) an hour but only after 7am and nothing after 7pm.

Taxis are not a cost effective answer as nearest major place for work is 15miles so doing that twice a day doesn't keep cost down for families especially considering there are 2 parents need those at different times to different locations.

There's so much more to consider for the consumer than just making cars able to be electric, costs and knock effects for people around the country are a huge contributing factor.

Yes agree here.
This is a backward step where everyone will live ,work and school their kids locally as you will have no choice.
So not just power but local schools, jobs etc.
It’s just not going to work.
Government once again setting unattainable target.

 

[clubchamp98]

based on what?

From what I understand to slow charge a Tesla overnight for 10 hours will provide about 150 miles of range and use 4KW of power. This is the same as the average house power usage but would be at off-peak time. Assuming everyone isn't charging their cars all at the same time as what is currently considered peak time, the infrastructure would be mostly sufficient. Add in that some people will charge at work etc.. which are likely to be larger power supplies already, this is a relatively small obstacle compared to some others.



This assumes lithium will remain the metal of choice for batteries. We have already gone from Nickel Cadmium to Nickel metal hydride to Lithium Ion, research is already looking into carbon-based batteries, so Lithium will be replaced eventually. Like in my previous post, battery tech can change without infrastructure issues, which is another pro for electric vehicles over hydrogen etc..

Based on the head engineer replacing the cables for the new lights .in my road .
He told me “ they were never intended to take the load they take now.”

 

[Wolf]

Yes agree here.
This is a backward step where everyone will live ,work and school their kids locally as you will have no choice.
So not just power but local schools, jobs etc.
It’s just not going to work.
Government once again setting unattainable target.

Totally agree with you, simply for me and my family it's not feasible we need access to 2 cars due to different working times and locations and we cannot afford electric cars at they're current costs so to say go careless and use taxis or public transport based on my own distances ith nearest amenities:
School 8 miles
Supermarket 9miles
Work 21miles
Hospital 14 miles

None of those are feasible walking distances on a daily basis, my 5 year can't walk that distance to school considering most of it has no paths. We don't live in a supermarket delivery catchment area, work isn't doable with public transport as the shift patterns we work and regularity of buses doesnt allow for our start times of early shifts or end times of late shifts. Plus there it would be a 2 round trip for school run due to bus timings (4hrs a day) the nearest Train station is 5 miles away. So for us not affording an electric car could mean up to 8 taxis a day, how is that cost effective for anyone, it simply wouldn't be worth going to work. I'm using myseof as an example but there is probably people out there would be hit even harder and struggle even further.

Simply saying the tech is there is one thing, but they have to look at how it affects the lives and livelihoods of those that don't have the spare income to buy these vehicles.

 

[jim8flog]

Lampposts for charging

I can think os lots of areas where I live where lamppost are so few and far between it would not happen. 2 cars for each lamppost. What happens in the streets in where the cars are only allowed to park on one side of the street.

Rows of terraced houses 20 long with doors that only have a pavement outside or even no pavement outside etc etc.

House in the country where the electricity comes from a diesel generator surely it is more efficient to power the car with diesel in the first place. Tractors and other vehicles on a farm will they ever produce electric vehicles with enough power and long enough lasting batteries for the farmer to do 16 hours of work on a full charge.

 

[robinthehood]

Totally agree with you, simply for me and my family it's not feasible we need access to 2 cars due to different working times and locations and we cannot afford electric cars at they're current costs so to say go careless and use taxis or public transport based on my own distances ith nearest amenities:
School 8 miles
Supermarket 9miles
Work 21miles
Hospital 14 miles

None of those are feasible walking distances on a daily basis, my 5 year can't walk that distance to school considering most of it has no paths. We don't live in a supermarket delivery catchment area, work isn't doable with public transport as the shift patterns we work and regularity of buses doesnt allow for our start times of early shifts or end times of late shifts. Plus there it would be a 2 round trip for school run due to bus timings (4hrs a day) the nearest Train station is 5 miles away. So for us not affording an electric car could mean up to 8 taxis a day, how is that cost effective for anyone, it simply wouldn't be worth going to work. I'm using myseof as an example but there is probably people out there would be hit even harder and struggle even further.

Simply saying the tech is there is one thing, but they have to look at how it affects the lives and livelihoods of those that don't have the spare income to buy these vehicles.

As electric cars become more common the price will drop, that's just market forces for you . 2nd hand availability will increase aswell . This isn't going to be some overnight cut over.
But it's not optional either. Oil won't last forever and then ad the impending threat of climate change, this has to happen.

 

[Wolf]

As electric cars become more common the price will drop, that's just market forces for you . 2nd hand availability will increase aswell . This isn't going to be some overnight cut over.
But it's not optional either. Oil won't last forever and then ad the impending threat of climate change, this has to happen.

All well and good but you then have to consider the cost of part exchange values of the fuel cars people would be trading against new or 2nd hand electric cars.

The value of the fuel car will be worthless and the 2nd hand version could well have some battery degradation which simply wouldn't be cost effective to replace.

I'm not against the changes I am however for a lot more being done to look at the financial and lifestyle implications this has in families.