The Footie Thread

[Neilds]

How many trophies has he won?

Players and managers are rated by the trophy cabinet.

Like players that are brilliant on the training ground but not on the pitch.

About as many as the rest of the past England managers for the last 50+ years

 

[PaulMdj]

Surely it’s relevant if a team wants to win a tournament- they have to beat the top teams

18 - lost to Croatia and also lost to Belgium twice
20 - lost to Italy
22 - Lost for France

Qualifying is diluted in recent years with the amount of lower ranked teams that have entered and qualifying shouldn’t be seen as an achievement when you look at the squad

And yes in the past other England managers have also lost to top teams during tournaments

You use it as a stick to batter Southgate though, the other side of that coin is the positives Swango listed and no other teams are listed in those positives.

I want him gone, but on paper and to the suits in the FA, some see him as success.

I’ve just looked back to Oct/Nov 2016 me, you & StuC had a robust conversation were after 2 games you were telling me it was too early to judge and we should give him a chance, he keeps getting chances because some see his record as good.

 

[Hobbit]

So why didn’t a big club step in and pick him up ? If someone is that good then any top club in Europe is grabbing him

And I used Maguire because he has had more caps for England than Southgate when you highlighted how many caps Southgate gate - imo it’s not a huge barometer on someone’s ability

I think he was good but I wouldn’t put him amongst the top 20 defenders that been seen in the Prem

But that’s all about opinions

At that time the only way Middlesbrough could attract top players was by paying way more than most clubs in the Prem, and by offering them a fabulous contract. Think on who the Boro attracted to the club from the early 90’s for about 15 years. Us supporters were treated to an absolute feast of football. It was massively attractive to watch.

Why use Maguire as an example and then say it’s not relevant? As for not being in the top 20 defenders in the Prem… the Prem has been running for around 30 years. I’d expect to not be in the top 20 by now but I’d expect him to be easily in the top 10 of English defenders.

I’ve seen him week in week out from the stands, often under pressure in a below average Boro side in the early noughties and he’s often been the best player on the pitch by far.

No, no and thrice no. Yes, berate for his ability as a manager but your opinion of him as a player is ignorant.

 

[clubchamp98]

About as many as the rest of the past England managers for the last 50+ years

Yep only one has.
That’s a fact.

 

[Orikoru]

In your opinion.

I watched him week in week out from the terraces, home and away, whilst you were getting 5mins on Match of the Day. But I’ll give you a comparison you might be able to relate to. He was no VVD defensively. Was he close to VVD defensively, mmm maybe but equally maybe not, but not a million miles away but damn good. However, in carrying the ball out of defence and distribution he easily beat VVD. And he did it with (relatively) poor players around him compared to what L’pool had at that time.

Streets ahead of Maguire both defensively and coming forward.

By all means slag him off for his managing, and I’ll stand next to you on that one, but in terms of how he played week in week out in a bang average team you’re clueless.

Are you really trying argue Southgate was a top player? Why did he never play for a club above mid-table in that case? I must admit he earned more England caps than I thought, but then Dier has 49 caps and Maguire has 63 so they're all in the same ballpark. When I think of the England teams when I was young I never really think of Southgate being in them. Bar Euro 96 perhaps - where he's largely remembered for missing a penalty.

 

[Hobbit]

Are you really trying argue Southgate was a top player? Why did he never play for a club above mid-table in that case? I must admit he earned more England caps than I thought, but then Dier has 49 caps and Maguire has 63 so they're all in the same ballpark. When I think of the England teams when I was young I never really think of Southgate being in them. Bar Euro 96 perhaps - where he's largely remembered for missing a penalty.

I don’t have to argue it, I firmly believe it. Dier isn’t even fit to carry his kit bag, and Maguire has got game time because Southgate can’t see anyone better.

Think I covered the reason Southgate didn’t play for a top club in my previous reply, and to get so many caps NOT playing for a fashionable club speaks volumes.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Not every top player has to play for a top club. That's a pretty narrow view of things. Maybe a player finds a place that he and his family are happy and are okay with the money on offer. I believe southgate still lives in N Yorkshire, same area as when he was at Middlesbrough. As @Hobbit said, at that time Boro were happy to pay decent wages so he wasn't struggling.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not every top player has to play for a top club. That's a pretty narrow view of things. Maybe a player finds a place that he and his family are happy and are okay with the money on offer. I believe southgate still lives in N Yorkshire, same area as when he was at Middlesbrough. As @Hobbit said, at that time Boro were happy to pay decent wages so he wasn't struggling.

I think Southgate was a decent prem player along with many others that have played in the prem - but a “top player” - we are talking the likes of Terry , Campbell , Ferdinand , Adams level when it comes to CBs - players coveted and bought by the best - I don’t have Southgate in that company , that doesn’t mean he is a bad player etc

There is no doubt that if he was at that level then the likes of Man Utd , Chelsea , Arsenal etc are dipping into their pockets to pay the £10mil it cost Boro

He had a very good prem career but I doubt many will have him as a top level player

It’s very rare that a top player doesn’t play for a top club through their career


As with many labels there is no real set criteria

 

[Orikoru]

I think Southgate was a decent prem player along with many others that have played in the prem - but a “top player” - we are talking the likes of Terry , Campbell , Ferdinand , Adams level when it comes to CBs - players coveted and bought by the best - I don’t have Southgate in that company , that doesn’t mean he is a bad player etc

There is no doubt that if he was at that level then the likes of Man Utd , Chelsea , Arsenal etc are dipping into their pockets to pay the £10mil it cost Boro

He had a very good prem career but I doubt many will have him as a top level player

It’s very rare that a top player doesn’t play for a top club through their career


As with many labels there is no real set criteria

Yeah, agreed. He was decent for his time but I don't think he was as good as those before him (e.g. Adams) and was surpassed by the generation after him as well (Campbell, Terry, Ferdinand). His cap count could be similarly explained as Heskey's - paucity of other options at the time, but filled a hole fairly well.

 

[Pin-seeker]

We discussed this over a pint last night. The question was asked whether we would be happy with England playing the same brand of football for four more games, winning them all, and ending as European Champions. Eight of us there, and opinion was split straight down the middle.

My view? I would absolutely love to see England win a major trophy during my lifetime. But I’m a football fan first and foremost, and watch it to be entertained. I’ve said it here countless times in relation to United.

So if England were to bore their way to a tournament win, whilst it would be nice to end the drought, it would not live long in the memory and, for that reason alone, I would not be celebrating wildly.

Sorry, but that’s me. Football is supposed to provide some escape from the drudgery. Not add to it.

I’d prefer too see us playing entertaining football & win it.
But I’d take any way of winning it tbh.
Hopefully it would get the monkey the back.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I’d prefer too see us playing entertaining football & win it.
But I’d take any way of winning it tbh.
Hopefully it would get the monkey the back.

Entertaining football and losing will do me

 

[Pin-seeker]

Entertaining football and losing will do me

Losing will never do me.
If we’d lost the last final to a good team like Spain 2012 I could handle that,but Italy were there for the taking,they even gave us a goal start

 

[Pin-seeker]

How refreshing to have all the English on the forum actually wanting us to win & no one trying to spoil it for us all

 

[Tashyboy]

Luke shaw is back in training

 

[Tashyboy]

 

[Pin-seeker]

Might need to make that £300k for the others

 

[AmandaJR]

Winning is priority. Winning whilst entertaining would be the icing on the cake.

I could just about live with us losing, but performing as we believe we can, and the better team winning.

 

[ColchesterFC]

At that time the only way Middlesbrough could attract top players was by paying way more than most clubs in the Prem, and by offering them a fabulous contract. Think on who the Boro attracted to the club from the early 90’s for about 15 years. Us supporters were treated to an absolute feast of football. It was massively attractive to watch.

Why use Maguire as an example and then say it’s not relevant? As for not being in the top 20 defenders in the Prem… the Prem has been running for around 30 years. I’d expect to not be in the top 20 by now but I’d expect him to be easily in the top 10 of English defenders.

I’ve seen him week in week out from the stands, often under pressure in a below average Boro side in the early noughties and he’s often been the best player on the pitch by far.

No, no and thrice no. Yes, berate for his ability as a manager but your opinion of him as a player is ignorant.

Not even close in my opinion. Off the top of my head I'd say (in no particular order) Tony Adams, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, Sol Campbell, Steve Bruce, Ledley King, Jamie Carragher, Stuart Pearce, Nigel Winterburn, Martin Keown and Lee Dixon.

And even if you disagree with two or three of my list that's still ten or eleven names ahead of Southgate.

 

[PaulMdj]

Not even close in my opinion. Off the top of my head I'd say (in no particular order) Tony Adams, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, Sol Campbell, Steve Bruce, Ledley King, Jamie Carragher, Stuart Pearce, Nigel Winterburn, Martin Keown and Lee Dixon.

And even if you disagree with two or three of my list that's still ten or eleven names ahead of Southgate.

There’s only 7 central defenders in your list! Why not a few midfield and forwards to really prove your point.

 

[ColchesterFC]

There’s only 7 central defenders in your list! Why not a few midfield and forwards to really prove your point.

Because Hobbit said "but I’d expect him to be easily in the top 10 of English defenders." So I decided to list DEFENDERS that I thought were better than Southgate. If Hobbit had said top ten "English central defenders" then I would possibly have agreed with him, although I would've given it a bit more thought than a quick list off the top of my head.

Maybe try reading what has actually been posted before trying to score cheap points.