The Footie Thread

[Arthur Wedge]

Ledley King was a tough one to determine. My gut says he was close on being the best of them all but, as you say, injuries ruined him. As for Jack Charlton, I did consider him but I often thought his first touch could be clumsy.

@harpo_72 also touches on the issue of “if your face fits,” and mentions Matt Le Tissier. I would take that a step further and say it’s often about which club they play for. There’s been plenty of players down the years whose performances have cried out for their inclusion but haven’t been picked but then got the dream transfer and have gone straight into the squad.

Equally, there’s been a few bang average players that have got into England squads on the back of who they play for. *dons tin hat* Phil Thompson(Liverpool), played for England plenty of times. Boringly reliable but bang average.

Thompson bang average

The same Thompson that was near ever present for one of the most dominant teams in English and European football playing for two of the best managers the game has seen - bang average


That’s a big hat to don

And

Problem looking back is we can get misty eyed or harsh, Venables gave us some great memories and Euro 96 was unreal, but if you look at his results prior to those Euros or even the press reports after the opening game, he really took some stick.

Bobby Robson with Italia 90 was another great ride, but we could of gone out early in the knockouts if it wasn’t for the late goal v Belgium.

One thing for sure, despite Southgate getting us further in Comps, his style of football has been shocking.

At least with others we remember us playing good football.

Venables had the ability to change things when needed -

Both him and Robson proved themselves also in club football at the highest level

 

[Beezerk]

The difference with Venables is that he saw what the problem was and changed it, something Southgate seems oblivious too.

I always thought the change in fortunes in Italia 90 was more player led than anything Robson done

Robson changed to a sweeper after the first two games which transformed the team, that’s how recall it anyway. Agree about Venables, made good decisions when they were required.

 

[Whereditgo]

Agree that both Robson and Venables were tactically aware, both good man managers and handled the media well too.

I really rated Hoddle as a manager, unfortunately he shot himself in the foot with non football related stuff.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Robson changed to a sweeper after the first two games which transformed the team, that’s how recall it anyway. Agree about Venables, made good decisions when they were required.

Yep -

In 86 - lost Robson got beat by Portugal and drew against Morocco

Brought in Beardsley , Steven and Reid and stuffed Poland

90 - kept mixing it up between a sweeper and 4 at the back

 

[PaulMdj]

Thompson bang average

The same Thompson that was near ever present for one of the most dominant teams in English and European football playing for two of the best managers the game has seen - bang average


That’s a big hat to don

And


Venables had the ability to change things when needed -

Both him and Robson proved themselves also in club football at the highest level

Not sure anyone mentioned Club football, also, are you sure Venables had the ability to change things when needed as the facts are not that straight forward, we qualified as hosts for Euro 96 and he struggled in the friendlies pre-tournament, was given stick after the Switzerland game, Scotland, small team we expected to beat, Holland we were superb and Spain we beat on pens.

 

[Orikoru]

Agree that both Robson and Venables were tactically aware, both good man managers and handled the media well too.

I really rated Hoddle as a manager, unfortunately he shot himself in the foot with non football related stuff.

Agree on Hoddle, arguably he was a little ahead of his time tactically when he managed England. Had us playing some good stuff with the wing back system when all other English managers were seemingly still in the 4-4-2 era.

Will get shouted down by some on here but I genuinely think Big Sam would have done well. He is slightly underrated due to the jobs he normally gets given (struggling teams that he has to make defensively more resilient) but people forget his Bolton side were class. I think he would have motivated a struggling side the way Southgate did when he came in, but Sam has that extra bit of ruthlessness to make changes when they're needed - which Southgate has always lacked.

 

[clubchamp98]

Not defensive but a player who really didn’t get played or given proper respect is Le Tissier …
It’s typical English, if your face fits irrespective of your lack of skills you get the job.

That would go for Ben White atm.
Given our lack of full backs this situation should have been sorted.

 

[Orikoru]

That would go for Ben White atm.
Given our lack of full backs this situation should have been sorted.

We don't have a lack of right backs though.

I think Southgate will go after the tournament - along with his assistant that White has fallen out with. Then I can see Walker and Trippier being phased out by the next manager since they'll both be 35+ at the next World Cup. So White will probably come back in and compete with Trent for that spot. Also Reece James if he can ever stay fit for more than three weeks.

 

[PaulMdj]

We don't have a lack of right backs though.

I think Southgate will go after the tournament - along with his assistant that White has fallen out with. Then I can see Walker and Trippier being phased out by the next manager since they'll both be 35+ at the next World Cup. So White will probably come back in and compete with Trent for that spot. Also Reece James if he can ever stay fit for more than three weeks.

Totally agree, just hope we find the next “venables/robson” etc,

I do thing the media has a massive part to play sadly.

 

[Orikoru]

Totally agree, just hope we find the next “venables/robson” etc,

I do thing the media has a massive part to play sadly.

The media has been enemy number 1 of the national team since the 90's. Everything from effectively driving Big Sam out of the job with the stitch-up meeting they created, to leaking details of our starting line-up to all and sundry before every game. Our next opponent never has to do much research to prepare for the game, just open the Daily Fail or The Scum. Not to mention the constant build-up of our best young players so they have further to fall when they knock them back down again.

 

[Hobbit]

Thompson bang average

The same Thompson that was near ever present for one of the most dominant teams in English and European football playing for two of the best managers the game has seen - bang average


That’s a big hat to don

Thompson was good at club level in an exceptional team. Another I saw a lot of from the stands when we lived in North Wales, unlike you happy clappers from your armchairs. And it was being surrounded by exceptional players at Liverpool that saw him get international recognition.

Remind me how many times he played for England compared to Southgate…

 

[PJ87]

The media has been enemy number 1 of the national team since the 90's. Everything from effectively driving Big Sam out of the job with the stitch-up meeting they created, to leaking details of our starting line-up to all and sundry before every game. Our next opponent never has to do much research to prepare for the game, just open the Daily Fail or The Scum. Not to mention the constant build-up of our best young players so they have further to fall when they knock them back down again.

Let's not forget how Southgate got the job either..

Whilst BFS isn't everyones cup of tea he seemed to get the best out of what he was given. His Bolton team over time played some fantastic football when needed but also could play the frustrating ball that wound Wenger up rotten .. the way the press set him out was ridiculous. I don't agree with what he was doing just really wasn't part of his role as England manager. Maybe if the press wants Gareth out they should remember they got him in to start with!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Thompson was good at club level in an exceptional team. Another I saw a lot of from the stands when we lived in North Wales, unlike you happy clappers from your armchairs. And it was being surrounded by exceptional players at Liverpool that saw him get international recognition.

Remind me how many times he played for England compared to Southgate…

Not sure the point when you dismissed Maguire when he has more caps than Southgate


And Thommo had 42 caps during a period where there was significantly less internationals

Thommo was that key he ended up being captain of that team

 

[PaulMdj]

Let's not forget how Southgate got the job either..

Whilst BFS isn't everyones cup of tea he seemed to get the best out of what he was given. His Bolton team over time played some fantastic football when needed but also could play the frustrating ball that wound Wenger up rotten .. the way the press set him out was ridiculous. I don't agree with what he was doing just really wasn't part of his role as England manager. Maybe if the press wants Gareth out they should remember they got him in to start with!

The press really didn’t get Southgate in, that is all down to the suits at the FA.

Initially he was stood up for 1 game, a qualifier against Malta that we won 2-0.

He was then given 3 games to prove himself, drew 2 won 1.

The football in all 3 matches was awful and he got stick, however, after the embarrassment of Allardyce they wanted a squeeky clean Yes man and that’s what they’ve got.

 

[Hobbit]

Not sure the point when you dismissed Maguire when he has more caps than Southgate


And Thommo had 42 caps during a period where there was significantly less internationals

Thommo was that key he ended up being captain of that team

He was the key? Oh stop it, you’re killing me

Hughes was the best captain, and never stopped talking. Obviously he couldn’t last forever. Thompson was the grey man, seen occasionally and rarely heard. That Liverpool team was beyond outstanding, managed by a fantastic boot room/production line of managers through there. The movement off the ball, rarely caught in a 10-15 minute segment on the old MOTD, was breathtaking. You’d get to 90mins and couldn’t believe it when the ref blew the final whistle. Every team has worldies and every team has workhorses. It would be unfair to label Thompson as a workhorse but he was no star. By far the best team in Europe at that time.

As for me dismissing Maguire, go back through the thread and you’ll see you dissing his selection time and again for the very reason I did. He was picked whilst off form by a manager who was far too loyal to some players, picking on the relationship not their form.

Edit: Thompson’s caps. There’s a few years where he got 0, 1,2, 3 caps. Obviously not first choice.

 

[clubchamp98]

We don't have a lack of right backs though.

I think Southgate will go after the tournament - along with his assistant that White has fallen out with. Then I can see Walker and Trippier being phased out by the next manager since they'll both be 35+ at the next World Cup. So White will probably come back in and compete with Trent for that spot. Also Reece James if he can ever stay fit for more than three weeks.

Walker has played on the left before or CB.
Just gives us another option.

Instead he takes a crocked LB .

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The press really didn’t get Southgate in, that is all down to the suits at the FA.

Initially he was stood up for 1 game, a qualifier against Malta that we won 2-0.

He was then given 3 games to prove himself, drew 2 won 1.

The football in all 3 matches was awful and he got stick, however, after the embarrassment of Allardyce they wanted a squeeky clean Yes man and that’s what they’ve got.

To be fair to him, he had worked with the U21's, created a good culture there, including a good tournament attitude. They did well under him from memory. Going to the senior team was a progression within the FA, not the worst idea.

Changing the culture at senior level is something that he should get credit for, both in terms of creating a better team spirit and also a better tournament mentality. When he moves on, that side of things is much better now. (He should still go, but credit where it's due)

 

[PaulMdj]

To be fair to him, he had worked with the U21's, created a good culture there, including a good tournament attitude. They did well under him from memory. Going to the senior team was a progression within the FA, not the worst idea.

Changing the culture at senior level is something that he should get credit for, both in terms of creating a better team spirit and also a better tournament mentality. When he moves on, that side of things is much better now. (He should still go, but credit where it's due)

Rose tinted glasses slightly?
If he resigns tomorrow I don’t see them putting Lee Carsley in as anything else but a caretaker, yet he won the U21 Euros. Southgate was right place at the right time.

He got the U21’s to one Euros were they finished bottom of the group.

He comes across as a really nice, harmless bloke who has, without doubt, done some really positive things for the set up etc, but it comes back to his legacy and that will be the style of football, unless he proves us all wrong and wins the Euro’s.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Rose tinted glasses slightly?
If he resigns tomorrow I don’t see them putting Lee Carsley in as anything else but a caretaker, yet he won the U21 Euros. Southgate was right place at the right time.

He got the U21’s to one Euros were they finished bottom of the group.

He comes across as a really nice, harmless bloke who has, without doubt, done some really positive things for the set up etc, but it comes back to his legacy and that will be the style of football, unless he proves us all wrong and wins the Euro’s.

Ha ha, not exactly rose tinted but I do remember successive failures of England, under Capello, Sven, Hodgson. The squads were not cohesive, widely stated by players, and we consistently under achieved or simply failed to achieve, depending on your point of view.

Southgate has improved certain things and we should acknowledge that. He should have gone a tournament ago though.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

On other matters, the refs association has confirmed that they back the decision of no penalty in the Scotland game. They state that the Scottish player stepped towards the Hungarian player, initiating the foul. Agree or disagree, but that's why it wasn't given.