the Distance Debate - should the authorities act

[Blue in Munich]

2018 at Walton Heath. In fact that winning score by Pepperall was even lower so despite WH not being the longest, there is a premium on avoiding the trees/heather

Apparently the Walton Heath composite course is 7,866 yards long. If you don’t think that’s long I can only admire the distance you must be hitting it Homer, as it’s plenty long enough for my game.

 

[Slab]

Problems as follows;
* not testing all aspects of someone's game. You can become a pretty decent top 50 player & even win a few tournaments with an average short game or putting game and you pretty much never have to hit an iron longer than a 7
* losing diversity of golfer, especially the shot shapers like Mickelson, Seve, Bubba and short game wizards like Donald, Trevino, Spieth
* golf courses keep getting bigger and use up more land and resource and take more time to play (this will filter down to members places, but appreciate there isn't much building or renovations in the UK)

Obviously if you've read through the thread and you don't see the problems, you don't see the problems.

I'm sure pro golf will continue (especially the PGA Tour) without wanting to address these issues and enough people will accept it for what it is. In my view it will and is getting more boring and we will have fewer 'clashes of styles' in tournaments as it will become almost impossible for someone to get on tour and stay on tour without hitting it huge distances.

But (generally speaking) isn't 'diversity' and 'all aspects' the same in this context? & if they are different are you sure all aspects aren't being tested? Are any of the field today hitting long irons into any Par 4 greens? No not really. Instead they are hitting these irons into the odd Par 5 as the 2nd shot, not on a Par 4.
So the skill is still there and being tested, just on the ‘wrong’ holes from the one the designer intended or that Seve et al hit long irons on (so as I say make more Par 5's into Par 4’s for that week. They already do this on certain courses to the odd hole, just expand the practice. No need to lengthen the course. They also turn short Par 4's into Par 3's and reduce the hole length! again no need for longer courses

Don't today’s players use the long iron off the tee to shot shape etc way more than players did 30 years ago, so again the shot is still being tested, just not for the same hole as they did in bygone days

Re Player diversity; I stand to be corrected but I think there are a good deal more diverse players now that can do recovery shots/shaping like Seve & with short games like Phil but it means we now see it as almost routine so it doesn’t stand out the way it did when he played. The skill is not gone, if anything it seems like they can all do it, but that's not really a cause of the 350 drive. That’s people like Seve and Tiger etc inspiring the current players to do what they did

Courses don’t have to be longer. Watching on TV I have no concept if a ball went 250 or 350 yards, it just doesn’t matter. Even spectating, once its past 250 I’m not seeing it land anyway.
So if the tour guys don’t get to play very many genuine three shot Par 5’s then so what. Probably the least interesting shot an elite pro plays for himself, the gallery and the TV audience is the 2nd shot lay-up to 100 yrds on a long Par 5

 

[User62651]

BDC clearly has a great all round game, not sure why he's been singled out now for bulking up to gain yards, Tiger Woods did it 20 years ago. Bubba and DJ have been hitting these distances for years. Rory is only 5'8", Ricky similar and they're both big hitters so it's much more than just physical size, x-factor seems key.
If a guy is hitting it 330 and that's seen as a problem for organisers then either narrow the fairway right in or grow a 30 yard long fairway-wide section of proper rough (not USPGA rough) at 310 yards so they have to play shorter with 3 wood or risk proper rough. Could be grown in a month ahead of a tournament then removed for the membership. Or some new tactical deep pot bunkering would introduce more risk to the bomber.
The 0.83 COR helped with distance control ca 18 years ago and later banning of square groove wedges helped with control from rough for the bomb/wedge tactic guys. Issue has been addressed, not just ignored.
Would be easy enough to get rid of graphite shafts, only allow steel. Or require that woods are actually made of wood. Can't see that because of the golf manufacturing businesses who sell on distance.
Hitting it long is one of the biggest draws for players and spectators, trying to reign it in could backfire.
In most sports the bigger stronger competitor dominates, that's just the way it is. Luckily golf requires more skill than brute strength so it gives everyone a sporting chance. Courses can be manipulated to defend scoring too.

 

[Mandofred]

Even though the courses keep getting longer, I keep remembering this interview on the Dan Patrick show (Pebble Beach time 2018) with Rory M. Rory thinks the best par 3's are inside of 150 yards (about 9:40 in the interview). There was a period where all the new courses were putting in par 3's of around 200 yards+.....just too far for the average golfer.

There are plenty of things you can do to make a golf course more difficult without getting carried away. Longer grass on fairways and rough....sand traps....trees in a position so you want to be in the correct spot..... Our course put in a few new sand traps in the last year+ and they are fine with me, but I think they could have done the same thing with something like humpty-bumps, small trees, ditches that increase the difficulty but without the fall-back answer of "put in a sand trap". Since I've been a member (5 years) the best thing they did was put a ditch down the right side of our par 5 8th....You can't just hit your second shot without worrying about that ditch and I quite often take a shorter club to reduce the chance of going in the ditch....

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Apparently the Walton Heath composite course is 7,866 yards long. If you don’t think that’s long I can only admire the distance you must be hitting it Homer, as it’s plenty long enough for my game.

I always assumed it would be pretty long and a tough test, hence why it’s used for US Open qualifying

 

[Grant85]

But (generally speaking) isn't 'diversity' and 'all aspects' the same in this context? & if they are different are you sure all aspects aren't being tested? Are any of the field today hitting long irons into any Par 4 greens? No not really. Instead they are hitting these irons into the odd Par 5 as the 2nd shot, not on a Par 4.
So the skill is still there and being tested, just on the ‘wrong’ holes from the one the designer intended or that Seve et al hit long irons on (so as I say make more Par 5's into Par 4’s for that week. They already do this on certain courses to the odd hole, just expand the practice. No need to lengthen the course. They also turn short Par 4's into Par 3's and reduce the hole length! again no need for longer courses

Changing the Par will have almost no impact on how courses are played or what players will win or have a clear advantage.

I don't believe at tour level someone is standing 250 yards away and thinking 'I better go for this as it's a par 4' or 'I can afford to lay up at this par 5'. They will play the shot the conditions & risk allow them to play.

I think par has a much greater influence at club level and a 15 handicap is loving a 250 yard par 4 but hating a 230 yard par 3... and likely putting himself in more trouble on the shorter hole as a result.

Agree to an extent, that even a 460 yard par 4 turns into driver and 8 or 9 iron, even for Webb Simpson or Brendon Todd. Doesn't mean it's right and I think still gives these guys very limited chances to win or even compete, only at certain courses that can neutralise a long hitter.

The one that gets me is Carnoustie. In 1999 the 18th was a fearsome hole - Paul Lawrie was hitting Driver, 3 wood into it and even in 2007 - there were plenty of problems and drama. Ok, so 2018 things were a lot firmer - but it was Driver, 9 iron in the main. Justin Rose birdied it all 4 rounds and it was barely a challenge - as long as you got a semi-decent drive away. Certainly almost no capacity for someone in the leading group to drop a shot or two and bring earlier groups into the fold.

 

[davidy233]

The one that gets me is Carnoustie. In 1999 the 18th was a fearsome hole - Paul Lawrie was hitting Driver, 3 wood into it and even in 2007 - there were plenty of problems and drama. Ok, so 2018 things were a lot firmer - but it was Driver, 9 iron in the main. Justin Rose birdied it all 4 rounds and it was barely a challenge - as long as you got a semi-decent drive away. Certainly almost no capacity for someone in the leading group to drop a shot or two and bring earlier groups into the fold.

Pretty sure that Lawrie hit the best 4 iron under pressure I've ever seen to win the Open - same club in regulation play I think. Carnoustie was a totally different beast weather wise in 2018 to what it was the week that Lawrie won - even without them tricking it up like a US Open course in '99, they wanted to stop someone ripping it apart if the weather was good, as it turned out weather wasn't good at all.

2018 was glorious weather apart from the downpour on Friday morning - mind you if you want an example of how the current pros can rip the 18th apart - I saw DJ drive into the burn in front of the green during a practice round on the Sunday before the championship - downwind and baked fairway though.

 

[ScienceBoy]

The answer is simple, nulify their advantage by making courses shorter, more open up to 300 yards or so and make sure there is trouble over the back.

 

[Slab]

Changing the Par will have almost no impact on how courses are played or what players will win or have a clear advantage.

I don't believe at tour level someone is standing 250 yards away and thinking 'I better go for this as it's a par 4' or 'I can afford to lay up at this par 5'. They will play the shot the conditions & risk allow them to play.

I think par has a much greater influence at club level and a 15 handicap is loving a 250 yard par 4 but hating a 230 yard par 3... and likely putting himself in more trouble on the shorter hole as a result.

Agree to an extent, that even a 460 yard par 4 turns into driver and 8 or 9 iron, even for Webb Simpson or Brendon Todd. Doesn't mean it's right and I think still gives these guys very limited chances to win or even compete, only at certain courses that can neutralise a long hitter.

The one that gets me is Carnoustie. In 1999 the 18th was a fearsome hole - Paul Lawrie was hitting Driver, 3 wood into it and even in 2007 - there were plenty of problems and drama. Ok, so 2018 things were a lot firmer - but it was Driver, 9 iron in the main. Justin Rose birdied it all 4 rounds and it was barely a challenge - as long as you got a semi-decent drive away. Certainly almost no capacity for someone in the leading group to drop a shot or two and bring earlier groups into the fold.

Was the 18th really intended as driver/3 wood hole ( I genuinely don’t know) or was it the conditions that made it so, and If van de Velde hadn’t blown up would you honestly remember what Lawrie hit? Dramatic as it was would you generally want the leaders to drop shots on the last to bring other back into play anyway though?

Maybe that’s just how you like your pro golf; with errors leading to the drama rather than the drama of a player coming from behind (genuinely not having a go) I’d rather see excellence from a chaser to haul in a leader who’s also playing well, rather than a leader fall back

I get that if you're a fan of Carnoustie and you see that hole get 'tamed' with short iron 2nd shots it might make you want to reign in the distance the pros skelp it but I'm sure it'll show teeth again in future

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Pretty sure that Lawrie hit the best 4 iron under pressure I've ever seen to win the Open - same club in regulation play I think. Carnoustie was a totally different beast weather wise in 2018 to what it was the week that Lawrie won - even without them tricking it up like a US Open course in '99, they wanted to stop someone ripping it apart if the weather was good, as it turned out weather wasn't good at all.

2018 was glorious weather apart from the downpour on Friday morning - mind you if you want an example of how the current pros can rip the 18th apart - I saw DJ drive into the burn in front of the green during a practice round on the Sunday before the championship - downwind and baked fairway though.

Even in 2007 lots of players were hitting 2 irons off the tee on a 500 yard par 4.

Yes they were leaving a long 2nd shot but they were removing the geater danger off the tee on what a a scary tee shot. That hole is a fantastic finishing hole when the players have to hit driver followed by a long iron.

Forgetting Van De Velde for a moment, Paul Lawrie hit 2 career shots into 18 in the play off.

 

[davidy233]

Forgetting Van De Velde for a moment, Paul Lawrie hit 2 career shots into 18 in the play off.

Paul was hitting 4 irons as well as anyone ever has back in those days - a magician with that club - sure he holed one on the Sunday in the Open championship a couple of years before that

 

[Blue in Munich]

I always assumed it would be pretty long and a tough test, hence why it’s used for US Open qualifying

Having had the pleasure of marshalling it for the last few years at the US Open qualifying James, and walking the full extent of it, I’d say it’s plenty long enough. Be interested to see the reasoning behind someone thinking it isn’t.

 

[Grant85]

Was the 18th really intended as driver/3 wood hole ( I genuinely don’t know) or was it the conditions that made it so, and If van de Velde hadn’t blown up would you honestly remember what Lawrie hit? Dramatic as it was would you generally want the leaders to drop shots on the last to bring other back into play anyway though?

Maybe that’s just how you like your pro golf; with errors leading to the drama rather than the drama of a player coming from behind (genuinely not having a go) I’d rather see excellence from a chaser to haul in a leader who’s also playing well, rather than a leader fall back

I get that if you're a fan of Carnoustie and you see that hole get 'tamed' with short iron 2nd shots it might make you want to reign in the distance the pros skelp it but I'm sure it'll show teeth again in future

I'm sure in 1999 it wasn't a Driver / 3 wood when Lawrie played it earlier in the afternoon. The wind turned and changed the hole.

Obviously in '99 the ground was soft with not much roll... so I guess if you got those conditions again at 500 yards into a breeze it's going to pose a greater challenge.

Have also heard Wayne Riley talking about playing the Scottish Open there in the 90s. He was leading by a couple of shots playing with Faldo. Faldo was hoping Riley could get into some trouble down 18. Riley took an iron down the right onto 17 and played it as a 3 shotter. Sir Nick was not impressed.

 

[garyinderry]

Play the open in February. No one will hit it 350.


Sorted.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

The one that gets me is Carnoustie. In 1999 the 18th was a fearsome hole - Paul Lawrie was hitting Driver, 3 wood into it and even in 2007 - there were plenty of problems and drama. Ok, so 2018 things were a lot firmer - but it was Driver, 9 iron in the main. Justin Rose birdied it all 4 rounds and it was barely a challenge - as long as you got a semi-decent drive away. Certainly almost no capacity for someone in the leading group to drop a shot or two and bring earlier groups into the fold.

You can't make comparisons on links courses. I've played Carnoustie quite a few times (sometimes in competitions from back tees) where the 18th has been driver/5i but I once also played it in a downwind hoolie and it was 3w/LW!

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I'm sure in 1999 it wasn't a Driver / 3 wood when Lawrie played it earlier in the afternoon. The wind turned and changed the hole.

Obviously in '99 the ground was soft with not much roll... so I guess if you got those conditions again at 500 yards into a breeze it's going to pose a greater challenge.

Have also heard Wayne Riley talking about playing the Scottish Open there in the 90s. He was leading by a couple of shots playing with Faldo. Faldo was hoping Riley could get into some trouble down 18. Riley took an iron down the right onto 17 and played it as a 3 shotter. Sir Nick was not impressed.

2018 was bone dry, and still, I could hit drives well over 300 that year.
There was still danger, due to the bunkers, ditches and OOB, and deep rough down the left, which several players went into.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

The answer is simple, nulify their advantage by making courses shorter, more open up to 300 yards or so and make sure there is trouble over the back.

A long pitch & putt course - that'll be thrilling !

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Having had the pleasure of marshalling it for the last few years at the US Open qualifying James, and walking the full extent of it, I’d say it’s plenty long enough. Be interested to see the reasoning behind someone thinking it isn’t.

I think he mixed up 2 different courses and 2 different years and, rather than admit it, doubled down

 

[davidy233]

I'm sure in 1999 it wasn't a Driver / 3 wood when Lawrie played it earlier in the afternoon. The wind turned and changed the hole.

Obviously in '99 the ground was soft with not much roll... so I guess if you got those conditions again at 500 yards into a breeze it's going to pose a greater challenge.

Have also heard Wayne Riley talking about playing the Scottish Open there in the 90s. He was leading by a couple of shots playing with Faldo. Faldo was hoping Riley could get into some trouble down 18. Riley took an iron down the right onto 17 and played it as a 3 shotter. Sir Nick was not impressed.

Here's a screen grab of Paul hitting his approach in regulation play - the commentators said 'It's playing much harder today than it has been the previous days as the wind has turned round'

It's still a three wood second shot for me though - and a taxi

 

[Deleted member 1147]

View attachment 31542

Here's a screen grab of Paul hitting his approach in regulation play - the commentators said 'It's playing much harder today than it has been the previous days as the wind has turned round'

It's still a three wood second shot for me though - and a taxi

Looks like he hit his tee shot into the semi, so the driver may not have run out as much as if it had hit the fairway