Sweep
Journeyman Pro
I seem to remember Faldo building up his forearms in the mid / late 80’s but it not working for him because his lost some touch on the greens - but maybe I dreamed it.
the Distance Debate - should the authorities act
- Thread starter Grant85
- Start date
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
Don't think he's alone even on the ET. I remember Monty went on a fitness regime and lost his swing timing and finesse around the green.
harpo_72
Journeyman Pro
Worth a watch
Grant85
Head Pro
interesting comments by R&A Chief Martin Slumbers. Responding specifically about questions on Bryson.
Bunkered Article
“Once we feel that the industry is stable again, which isn't going to be tomorrow, because we don't know what's going to happen over autumn and winter, we will be coming back to that issue in great seriousness,” he added.
“It is too simple just to say change the ball. Way too simple. You can do things with the ball.
“But it's the relationship between ball and club which is most important to me.”
So clear signal of intent to not only change the ball, but also clubs.
Will be really interesting to see if they do go down the bifurcation route, or give amateurs a get out to ensure all drivers aren't going to made non-conforming.
Bunkered Article
“Once we feel that the industry is stable again, which isn't going to be tomorrow, because we don't know what's going to happen over autumn and winter, we will be coming back to that issue in great seriousness,” he added.
“It is too simple just to say change the ball. Way too simple. You can do things with the ball.
“But it's the relationship between ball and club which is most important to me.”
So clear signal of intent to not only change the ball, but also clubs.
Will be really interesting to see if they do go down the bifurcation route, or give amateurs a get out to ensure all drivers aren't going to made non-conforming.
Crow
Crow Person
Reeds to me like a good 3 or 4 years of "research" before any decision is made and even then I can't see anything significant happening.
sunshine
Well-known member
As I said earlier in the topic I wouldn't be at all happy if they limited the ball for amateur chumps like me as well. I don't think I should be punished just because Bryson decided to have five protein shakes a day.I'd probably stock up on old balls, and quit my club membership so I can just carry on as normal but no comps etc so I wouldn't have to worry about playing a conforming ball.
You can do this already. Plenty of illegal golf balls on the market that are too "hot" to conform with current rules.
https://www.polaragolf.com/
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
I've already said reduce the driver head size, but sounds like the R&A have their own plans. I have no issue with the pros having different equipment if it make their game a better viewing spectacle. I appreciate the skill in smashing it miles but watching driver, short iron and simply ignoring any hazards and sailing the ball over them with impunity is becoming a dull spectacle
Grant85
Head Pro
Absolutely. I'm certainly more in the way of thinking that Bifurcation is coming and just get used to it.
I watched a bit of the PGA Tour at the weekend from Muirfield Village.
This was a course designed by Jack Nicklaus for a PGA Tour event and with alterations made regularly to keep it relevant. There were some great risk reward holes with water beside or in front of the green. Was really good seeing guys make different decisions on the same hole rather than everyone just bombing Driver as far as they could.
Probably helped that the guys in contention - Thomas, Hovland and Morikawa are all good hitters, but not monster length guys.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
I think the venue had a lot to do with it and a testament to the skill of Nicklaus as a designer that even now, it makes the bombers question the decision to hit driver. However a lot of the courses on the PGA tour in particular are more resort type layouts and not perhaps designed originally with the idea of hosting the top players which is why they can bomb and hit from anywhere.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Doesn't that just prove what some of us were saying about making the courses tighter and more punishing being the answer then?? There's an example of how a well-designed course can't be overpowered as much as the usual weekly PGA bombfest.
Two things happened. And then the strengthening, which had limited scope for gaining advantage previously. had the door opened to it by the first two. That length, being such a step change as to make golf course design exposed added a fourth component. The sum of the four has fundamentally altered the game, leavin golf courses, beyond tricking them up with heavy rough, more and more water, and slicker greens, defenceless. And while those elements can keep scores in the range we have known, its a bit like saying boxers have become too strong so we are going to tie one arm behind their backs - its no longer the same sport.
The first component is the ball. Longer. With the spin of the balata ball.
The second is the most critical one, and the dam through which all else has flowed - the big big big driver. 460cc is way too big. This is the element that has facilitated smash golf and made hitting out a beneficial and unchallenged way to good golf. Wooden drivers with small sweet spots, bowed faces, and lower CORs had a self correcting influence on speed versus precision. The precision window a golfer needs to hit the ball has become wide open with the titanium driver. And made distance crush precision.
The third component is faciilitated by the first two. Now really pumping yourself up in the gym so that you can give it all and kill the ball, precision be damned, has meant they can truly exploit the flaw the big driver has brough into the game. Previously the gains were marginal if anything at all. Any loss in timing and precision from muscle gain or powering it to the max negated the extra club speed. That is no longer the case.
The fourth it an unfortunate by product of the first three which compounds the problem. Previously, a long hitter gained a good advantage from his 260yd drive over the 240yf driver and possibly a club less on his second too. Fair dues. But now, the distance is just totally out of proportion with the design of golf courses as we have known them for a hundred years. Fairway bunkers are a minimal threat - you either layup with a 280 yard shot, or bomb over it with a 330 yard carry. Humiliating the golf course. And on so many holes, unless golf courses become all island greens and water sided fairways to extract a neat shot penalty for a miss, are well worth just powering it down there 370 yards. You will probably only have a pitch to the green whereever it ends up. And if its in the fairway all the better.
So these four elements have totally changed the game for the top golfers and taken it further away from the game the rest of the world play. Golf was better, then the game was not telescoped out to this extend. Its sick. And needs to be fixed. Limit wood head size to 200cc. Reduce ball distance by 15%. Golf will be a great game again.
The first component is the ball. Longer. With the spin of the balata ball.
The second is the most critical one, and the dam through which all else has flowed - the big big big driver. 460cc is way too big. This is the element that has facilitated smash golf and made hitting out a beneficial and unchallenged way to good golf. Wooden drivers with small sweet spots, bowed faces, and lower CORs had a self correcting influence on speed versus precision. The precision window a golfer needs to hit the ball has become wide open with the titanium driver. And made distance crush precision.
The third component is faciilitated by the first two. Now really pumping yourself up in the gym so that you can give it all and kill the ball, precision be damned, has meant they can truly exploit the flaw the big driver has brough into the game. Previously the gains were marginal if anything at all. Any loss in timing and precision from muscle gain or powering it to the max negated the extra club speed. That is no longer the case.
The fourth it an unfortunate by product of the first three which compounds the problem. Previously, a long hitter gained a good advantage from his 260yd drive over the 240yf driver and possibly a club less on his second too. Fair dues. But now, the distance is just totally out of proportion with the design of golf courses as we have known them for a hundred years. Fairway bunkers are a minimal threat - you either layup with a 280 yard shot, or bomb over it with a 330 yard carry. Humiliating the golf course. And on so many holes, unless golf courses become all island greens and water sided fairways to extract a neat shot penalty for a miss, are well worth just powering it down there 370 yards. You will probably only have a pitch to the green whereever it ends up. And if its in the fairway all the better.
So these four elements have totally changed the game for the top golfers and taken it further away from the game the rest of the world play. Golf was better, then the game was not telescoped out to this extend. Its sick. And needs to be fixed. Limit wood head size to 200cc. Reduce ball distance by 15%. Golf will be a great game again.
D
Deleted member 3432
Guest
Tony Finau up to 206 ball speed and 380 odd yard carry on launch monitor.....
So if the guys who were 20 yards longer than BDS previously decide flat out swing is the way to go it could get interesting and BDS is back in the pack.....
9000 yard course anyone?
So if the guys who were 20 yards longer than BDS previously decide flat out swing is the way to go it could get interesting and BDS is back in the pack.....
9000 yard course anyone?
harpo_72
Journeyman Pro
I think I would even be tempted to not only reduce the wood cc, but also give the face variable COR, like a persimmon would. That would be interesting and also a technical challenge... your amateurs might get grumpy but it should be about the game and the integrity of the game, I mean I can make 180s all day if you let me walk up and stick the darts in the board. I also think we will get back to quicker rounds, none of this swinging out your shoes and the rest of the group trying to locate it whilst remember where they hoofed theirs off to.
harpo_72
Journeyman Pro
Launch monitors one thing but on the course ? Wait and see, it might be theoretically possible but these guys need to do it regularly through a round and over 4 days .. hence the gym work, the endurance strength.
Crow
Crow Person
Vintage golf, it's where it's at.
Slime
Tour Winner
Grant85
Head Pro
The course is still 7,400 yards. And Bryson wasn't in the field. Let's see what he does this week on the same course.
At the moment, Bryson is a monster hitter - but I'd be certain there are already guys training to try and do what he is doing. In a few years he will be one of a few dozen guys with that kind of power.
Look at the dominance of Tiger when he came onto the scene. He was miles past almost everyone else, averaging under 300 yards per drive. Nowadays most players who started playing in the Tiger era are much longer and 300 yards is 75th on the PGA Tour in terms of driving distance. Generations move on and the post Bryson generation will most likely make DJ and Rory look like old men.
Of course Golf Course design can play it's part, but unless you can get something running firm and fast like Royal Melbourne or Carnoustie 2018 - distance is a huge disproportionate advantage.
Grant85
Head Pro
I think that's the issue. Very few courses are designed or maintained with just Tour players in mind. 99.9% of golf is played by handicap golfers.
We are probably reaching a time when the Tour / Pro Golf could afford to have purpose built venues like Muirfield Village, Sawgrass, Augusta that cater for elite play. But that is still going to be a small number of venues.
And of course there will always be a clamour for places to have a piece of that action and they will take action to lengthen and strengthen their courses.
The trickle down effect is also such that any new venue or renovation is going to be pushing 8,000 yard tee options even if they aren't setting up for Tour golf.
Newest course to open in Scotland, Dumbarnie Links, has tournament tees at 7,620 and I'd probably guess and say they might well have left room behind a few tees to extend further back in the future.
That's a lot of land, a lot of turf, a lot of paths, a lot of grass to cut, fertilise and water... and isn't going to add up to a cheap round of golf or a quick one given the size these properties will have to be.
Isn't it easier to just give guys a smaller headed Driver and a ball with shallower dimples and play at hundreds of already suitable courses!
cliveb
Head Pro
Here's something I've not seen proposed by anyone: limit how stiff the shafts can be. This would reduce the swing speed that the pros can safely use, but won't affect club golfers at all.
Granted, it would be possible to use a very high swing speed with a more flexible shaft, but the chances of it going seriously awry would be significant.
Granted, it would be possible to use a very high swing speed with a more flexible shaft, but the chances of it going seriously awry would be significant.
harpo_72
Journeyman Pro
Won’t necessarily work, some of these guys are so smooth they could cope, you would be penalising those with aggressive transitions and that doesn’t necessarily align to the big hitters.
