The all things EV chat thread

[Lord Tyrion]

The European Union has just decided that they are going to tax China EVs.
No idea what it will do to pricing here. Are left hand and right hand drives produced/exported independently of each other?
I mean, with for example MG or BYD now being more expensive in France, will there be an impact on our market here?

I'd be staggered if the UK doesn't follow. China are looking to kill the competition, it's how they operate, via state subsidy, fewer rules etc. The tariffs are there to prevent that from happening, keep the other mfrs in the game. North America has done this, the EU have followed and we will surely mirror them.

 

[Mudball]

I'd be staggered if the UK doesn't follow. China are looking to kill the competition, it's how they operate, via state subsidy, fewer rules etc. The tariffs are there to prevent that from happening, keep the other mfrs in the game. North America has done this, the EU have followed and we will surely mirror them.

Remember we left, so we dont have to follow. Given that we no longer have any car manufacturing to protect.. we should drop import duties.. flood the mrket with cheap stuff.

 

[larmen]

But we can't really benefit from it, can we?

What I mean is that they have thousands of cars for the EU they can't shift, but they are all left hand drive.
Can any of those car parts be used to get the right hand drive cars cheaper because they have to shift it here?

 

[OnTour]

The European Union has just decided that they are going to tax China EVs.
No idea what it will do to pricing here. Are left hand and right hand drives produced/exported independently of each other?
I mean, with for example MG or BYD now being more expensive in France, will there be an impact on our market here?

Hope not, the legacy dealers need more pain to lower prices and be competitive. Mg make great cars at the right money

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Hope not, the legacy dealers need more pain to lower prices and be competitive. Mg make great cars at the right money

The cars may be nice, but the Chinese government subsidise the EV manufacturers in China so they can undercut everyone else. That creates a false selling price.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Remember we left, so we dont have to follow. Given that we no longer have any car manufacturing to protect.. we should drop import duties.. flood the mrket with cheap stuff.

Nissan, Mini and and Toyota still produce here, so we do still have car mfr. We also need to look at the bigger picture, which includes the significant supply into the European manufacturing system. That's a big deal for UK companies still.

Flooding the market would cause huge damage to a range of UK companies, never mind the long term issues of a lack of competition.

 

[PJ87]

The cars may be nice, but the Chinese government subsidise the EV manufacturers in China so they can undercut everyone else. That creates a false selling price.

Whilst this is true it's also true that they overprice the cars massively and could easily sell for less

For example the price of lithium has dropped dramatically since EVs first took off but that's not been reflected in the cost to buy one

The price china sell them for still will make a profit

Servicing is another con they main dealers are trying it on with. Tesla have proven the cars only need tyre and filter changes but all the legacy dealers are trying to make them 2 yearly services at similar costs to what they charged before with much less work

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The price china sell them for still will make a profit

Not an issue if you have few regulations, pay peanuts, don't look after employees, have no environmental regulations, pay little for power because the govt subsidise it. Basically, they rig the system and stuff people and the planet in the process.

 

[PJ87]

Not an issue if you have few regulations, pay peanuts, don't look after employees, have no environmental regulations, pay little for power because the govt subsidise it. Basically, they rig the system and stuff people and the planet in the process.

What I mean LT is BMW could price their EVs at a much much lower price point.. even on par with their ice cars and still walk away with a huge profit

The mark up is ridiculous, pure greed from the legacy dealers

 

[PJ87]

Exactly, but brutal honesty of it is that there is a healthy profit margin as well. I remember being told Range Rover cost JLR £39k and they were selling at £120k .. not all cars have this margin especially the small ones but they are worthwhile to produce

@Lord Tyrion this is what I mean

 

[Tashyboy]

I'd be staggered if the UK doesn't follow. China are looking to kill the competition, it's how they operate, via state subsidy, fewer rules etc. The tariffs are there to prevent that from happening, keep the other mfrs in the game. North America has done this, the EU have followed and we will surely mirror them.

A few Years ago me and Missis T were in Kuala Lumpar Malaysia. They were quite proud in charging owners of European cars 100% import tax. I thought at the time why don’t we charge 100% import tax on Malaysian cars.

 

[harpo_72]

I don’t the Chinese can flood the market .. they need customers and they need happy customers. There is a distinct difference between a car suitable for the Chinese market and one for the EU market.
When I as at JLR the Chinese were complaining about the vehicle comfort.. basically they really like it soft vertically which then makes it roll like boat through corners.
So ultimately they will end up building cars in Europe and they will be tuned by the European engineers with experience.
The thing also to take note of is the Chinese like to use suppliers that are Chinese or have a large percentage ownership of Chinese stake money.
As stated it’s a state funded business and it is not competitive.. but the EU manufacturers are getting fat and consumer is losing out.

 

[harpo_72]

Not an issue if you have few regulations, pay peanuts, don't look after employees, have no environmental regulations, pay little for power because the govt subsidise it. Basically, they rig the system and stuff people and the planet in the process.

This is not the case they have regulations that are strict. EU products have to conform to them and they are on occasions tougher. Where they are weak is maintaining this, so you get your initial certificate but when that’s done it’s highly likely there will be a cost reduction exercise and that’s when it goes all a bit “Pete tong” but this happens in the EU and States .. it’s accountants taking engineering decisions by all means remove or reduce cost from areas that design has rammed in but not with components or suppliers that don’t meet safety legislation

 

[harpo_72]

So you want hear something ironic .. if you bring all your components from China and assemble in South Korea you don’t pay US tariffs ..

 

[Lord Tyrion]

This is not the case they have regulations that are strict. EU products have to conform to them and they are on occasions tougher. Where they are weak is maintaining this, so you get your initial certificate but when that’s done it’s highly likely there will be a cost reduction exercise and that’s when it goes all a bit “Pete tong” but this happens in the EU and States .. it’s accountants taking engineering decisions by all means remove or reduce cost from areas that design has rammed in but not with components or suppliers that don’t meet safety legislation

Apologies, I didn't mean safety regulations. More along the line of environmental pollution, how workers are dealt with etc. Either the mfrs or their suppliers are not under the same restrictions, restrictions that are there for good reasons, as mfrs here, in Europe, north America.

 

[harpo_72]

Apologies, I didn't mean safety regulations. More along the line of environmental pollution, how workers are dealt with etc. Either the mfrs or their suppliers are not under the same restrictions, restrictions that are there for good reasons, as mfrs here, in Europe, north America.

The environmental pollution stuff is hard to determine because the west want to say it’s bad but they have whole facilities powering themselves. As for dumping chemicals who knows if they are worse than our water companies etc or the Russians and Eastern Europeans and their road “de icers “ etc ..
I think it’s like India which has a population that is not paid well in the workplace or has the rights that western workers have. This gives them the advantage in price but people who are not treated well or poorly paid don’t produce quality items.
The other issues you have are copyright laws, they don’t apply.. I don’t care about that myself I think the west pays too much to protect creative copyright.

 

[jim8flog]

Nissan, Mini and and Toyota still produce here, so we do still have car mfr. We also need to look at the bigger picture, which includes the significant supply into the European manufacturing system. That's a big deal for UK companies still.

Flooding the market would cause huge damage to a range of UK companies, never mind the long term issues of a lack of competition.

It really does depend on what you consider as manufacturing. A lot will just be assembly of parts made in other countries.

 

[cliveb]

It's interesting that it seems to have taken the state of the EV market to make people begin to think about what's been going on for ages.
The west has spent the last few decades sleep walking into allowing China to become the world's dominant force in manufacturing.
It's probably now too late to do anything about it.
Let's just hope that now they have us by the proverbials, they choose not to squeeze too hard (for fear of bankrupting their customer base).

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It really does depend on what you consider as manufacturing. A lot will just be assembly of parts made in other countries.

European car mfrs generally assemble European made parts. Spain and Portugal are significant auto electronic mfrs supplying most of the big boys. That's before you look at Germany and others dotted around, including a small number in the UK.

All final car mfrs are effectively assembly factories.