The all things EV chat thread

[cliveb]

Why does the Govt not provide subsidy for home owners to micro-generate and switch to EVs

Well, the government did used to subsidise home owners to micro-generate.
It was called the Feed In Tariff scheme, and it was a fabulous money-spinner for those people able to afford to install panels.
(In fact it remains a money spinner for them, as it's still in operation. Anyone who got in at the peak rate back in around 2011 is now being paid north of 60p per kWh, regardless of whether they use it or export it, and the rate increases by inflation every year).

Problem is, the payments made to the people with panels come from a levy on everyone's electricity bill. (And those payments will continue for the next 15 years or so).
Truly a scheme to take from the poor and give to the rich.

By all means the government should find a way to encourage take up of home generation, but not at the expense of everyone else.
But I worry that those in power have a track record of failing to understand the law of unintended consequences.

 

[Mudball]

Or looking at it another way, why should VAT on your leccy only be 5% when its being used as a fuel for your motoring? We all know the majority of the fuel cost is tax for the Govt so why shouldnt the EV motorist pay the full VAT on that leccy?

You are saying, it being a bit like red diesel being put into personal vehicles. I agree with the logic, but it will be difficult (& damaging) to force the idea till you have a even higher adoption of EVs. What if I have EV but i dont charge at home? or if i dont have an EV, but allow my driveway to used for charging. What if my EV is out of service for a day/week/month and I cant charge it - do i SORN it and get my VAT back? What happens when i go on holiday etc etc etc. # PandorasBox... there are bigger tax violators than EV folks to go after.

Well, the government did used to subsidise home owners to micro-generate.
It was called the Feed In Tariff scheme, and it was a fabulous money-spinner for those people able to afford to install panels.
(In fact it remains a money spinner for them, as it's still in operation. Anyone who got in at the peak rate back in around 2011 is now being paid north of 60p per kWh, regardless of whether they use it or export it, and the rate increases by inflation every year).

Problem is, the payments made to the people with panels come from a levy on everyone's electricity bill. (And those payments will continue for the next 15 years or so).
Truly a scheme to take from the poor and give to the rich.

By all means the government should find a way to encourage take up of home generation, but not at the expense of everyone else.
But I worry that those in power have a track record of failing to understand the law of unintended consequences.

i agree, this is why i am for more subsidies for micro-generation. Any house owner with a roof pointing the right direction should get subsidy to install it. Every new house built in this country should be mandated to have it - just like having any utility. The 2011 FIIT would have been amazing. Every new tech needs incentives and those who could have used it. Fair play, cant blame them.

Also fair comment on govts not being great at making such things work - but these usually start with good intend before some poor execution. I guess the Green discounts in NI has a similar poor record.

I can empathise the poor to rich move of money, but i guess the argument is more nunaced than that, and should not been seen in isolation. It is similar to me saying that I pay national insurance and tax, while not using the NHS once in the last 12 months, so i m subsiding the sick.
The reality is, we will never adopt anything new if we dont see a benefit. When our panels were going up, my neighbour came around and the first question was 'what is the payback'. As soon as i told him, I cant see the return before 8-10 years, he turned away. He does not know if he will see value and why should he invest in somehting that the next buyer will benefit from. This is not withstanding the fact that the average tenure in our cul de sac is about 30 years. Without a subsidy, we wont convert them

 

[jim8flog]

Or looking at it another way, why should VAT on your leccy only be 5% when its being used as a fuel for your motoring? We all know the majority of the fuel cost is tax for the Govt so why shouldnt the EV motorist pay the full VAT on that leccy?

Whilst that sounds like a good I know the way my leccy use is calculated not a great thing to put on the power companies to sort out.
When I use an ordinary plug in charger there is no way of knowing what I am using the leccy for and the same must apply to all those users that do not have a home dedicated charger.

 

[larmen]

There is a white MG5 that always stands at the same charging lamp post. I keep pointing it out to the misses as kind of exposure therapy for our next car.

The post is surrounded by 4 cars, the MG the only electric one is one of 2 cars that is always double parking. There is an old Range Rover on a proper parking spot, I don't think I have never not seen it there.
This morning I saw the guy for the 1st time, and what I saw is him moving the MG and then pulling a 15 year old Polo into that space. I think he is personally hugging the charging spot with older cars.


Infrastructure doesn't help if we have people like that around.

 

[bobmac]

What do the following cars have in common...

Dacia Spring
Peugeot E 208
MG MG5
MG MG ZS
Mazda MX-30
Citroen E-C4
Vauxhall Corsa E
MG MG4
Vauxhall Mokka-e
Nissan Leaf Tekna
Fiat 500e

They all cost under £25,000 brand new.

What do the following cars have in common...

Vauxhall Astra
Skoda Kamiq
Skoda Scala
Mazda CX-5
AUDI A1
HYUNDAI Kona
Peugeot 408
Mini
VW Golf Tdi Auto

They all cost OVER £25,000 brand new.

 

[PNWokingham]

What do the following cars have in common...

Dacia Spring
Peugeot E 208
MG MG5
MG MG ZS
Mazda MX-30
Citroen E-C4
Vauxhall Corsa E
MG MG4
Vauxhall Mokka-e
Nissan Leaf Tekna
Fiat 500e

They all cost under £25,000 brand new.

What do the following cars have in common...

Vauxhall Astra
Skoda Kamiq
Skoda Scala
Mazda CX-5
AUDI A1
HYUNDAI Kona
Peugeot 408
Mini
VW Golf Tdi Auto

They all cost OVER £25,000 brand new.

and the relevance is?? A 408 costs more than a 208, 2 sizes smaller??

 

[Arthur Wedge]

What do the following cars have in common...

Dacia Spring
Peugeot E 208
MG MG5
MG MG ZS
Mazda MX-30
Citroen E-C4
Vauxhall Corsa E
MG MG4
Vauxhall Mokka-e
Nissan Leaf Tekna
Fiat 500e

They all cost under £25,000 brand new.

What do the following cars have in common...

Vauxhall Astra
Skoda Kamiq
Skoda Scala
Mazda CX-5
AUDI A1
HYUNDAI Kona
Peugeot 408
Mini
VW Golf Tdi Auto

They all cost OVER £25,000 brand new.

Why are you comparing a VW Golf TDI to Ev cars or Peugeots that are different size

There are multiple ICE cars that can be bought for under £25k

Dacia Sandero is £13k

 

[Lord Tyrion]

That is one of the more bizarre comparisons I've seen. Not like for like.

Also missing the ranges for both sets. Golf TDi probably does 600 miles or so on a full tank for example, compare that to...............

 

[cliveb]

Why are you comparing a VW Golf TDI to Ev cars or Peugeots that are different size

There are multiple ICE cars that can be bought for under £25k

Dacia Sandero is £13k

To be fair, the Dacia Spring (closest EV equivalent to a Sandero) is expected to be about £15k.
So it looks as if purchase price of some EVs is now falling to a reasonable place.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

To be fair, the Dacia Spring (closest EV equivalent to a Sandero) is expected to be about £15k.
So it looks as if purchase price of some EVs is now falling to a reasonable place.

Dacia has been historically a brand that’s significantly cheaper than all other brands - you get what you pay for

That’s the same with all cars tbh

Most EV’s are currently more money than their ICE equivalent

 

[bobmac]

I still read today that EVs are out of the price range of most people, so I decided to see what was on offer and for how much.
I wasn't comparing like for like, I was demonstrating how EVs are not all £40,000 plus and many ICE cars are more expensive.

There are multiple ICE cars that can be bought for under £25k

Yes, I know. The point I was making is there are many EVs under £25k too.
What some people forget is how much an ICE car can cost.
I used the Golf Tdi as an example of how a brand new Tesla model 3 can cost less than a VW Golf.

It's just one of the arguments against EVs disappearing.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I still read today that EVs are out of the price range of most people, so I decided to see what was on offer and for how much.
I wasn't comparing like for like, I was demonstrating how EVs are not all £40,000 plus and many ICE cars are more expensive.

Yes, I know. The point I was making is there are many EVs under £25k too.
What some people forget is how much an ICE car can cost.
I used the Golf Tdi as an example of how a brand new Tesla model 3 can cost less than a VW Golf.

It's just one of the arguments against EVs disappearing.

People don’t forgot how much an ICE car costs

And a new Tesla Model 3 is £40k



Gold TDI new is from £30k




EV cars are still more expensive than their ICE equivalent- on the whole

But that’s not the only reason why people still want to stick with ICE

 

[bobmac]

People don’t forgot how much an ICE car costs

And a new Tesla Model 3 is £40k

View attachment 54113

Gold TDI new is from £30kView attachment 54114
EV cars are still more expensive than their ICE equivalent- on the whole

But that’s not the only reason why people still want to stick with ICE

I didn't say EVs aren't more expensive, all I am saying is the cost of EVs are coming down more than some people think, while the price of ICE cars continue to rise.
And if you want to go the top of the range golf tdi, it still can't compare with the size, price and performance of a standard Tesla model 3

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I didn't say EVs aren't more expensive, all I am saying is the cost of EVs are coming down more than some people think, while the price of ICE cars continue to rise.
And if you want to go the top of the range golf tdi, it still can't compare with the size, price and performance of a standard Tesla model 3

Who are these people you are talking about

Everyone knows there are cheap EV’s just like there are cheap ICE cars

you appear to be attempting to make a point that’s very much known to everyone

You said a Model Tesla 3 is cheaper than. Brand new VW golf

When it’s clear most golf models are cheaper significantly and the equivalent models will be about £10k cheaper for a golf

 

[bobmac]

Who are these people you are talking about

Spend 5 minutes on EV review vids on You tube and read the comment sections, there are loads.

When it’s clear most golf models are cheaper significantly and the equivalent models will be about £10k cheaper for a golf

You found a Golf equivalent to a Tesla model 3 and it's £10k cheaper?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Spend 5 minutes on EV review vids on You tube and read the comment sections, there are loads.

So your post was in response to them
Strange to not respond to them on those posts

You found a Golf equivalent to a Tesla model 3 and it's £10k cheaper?

Is the Golf TDI not equivalent then ( suspect the Golf has a longer range )


“I used the Golf Tdi as an example of how a brand new Tesla model 3 can cost less than a VW Golf.”





it’s not just the cost that is stopping people getting EV - practicality is another key reason.

 

[bobmac]

So your post was in response to them
Strange to not respond to them on those posts

I did respond to them.

Is the Golf TDI not equivalent then ( suspect the Golf has a longer range )


“I used the Golf Tdi as an example of how a brand new Tesla model 3 can cost less than a VW Golf.”

I'd love to see an example of a Golf that is comparable to a Model 3

it’s not just the cost that is stopping people getting EV - practicality is another key reason.

Of course it's not but when asked, the cost will be in the top 3 answers of most people along with range and charging infrastructure.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I did respond to them.



I'd love to see an example of a Golf that is comparable to a Model 3



Of course it's not but when asked, the cost will be in the top 3 answers of most people along with range and charging infrastructure.

Confused Bob as you were the one comparing the golf and a Tesla Model 3

So are they not comparable

Think the most expensive Golf is the R ( limited edition 20 ) at £40k - high performance, the Model 3 Performance is at £70k

And yes for many - it’s cost , range , charging , which all wraps into if the car is practical and for many it isn’t yet

 

[cliveb]

You found a Golf equivalent to a Tesla model 3 and it's £10k cheaper?

Tesla Model 3 range between £40k and £60k
Golf prices range between £27k and £37k

Advantages of the Tesla: amazing performance; supercharger network.
Advantages of a Golf: everything else.

I cannot imagine trying to drive a car where every control is buried in menus on a touchscreen. It sounds positively dangerous.

 

[bobmac]

Of course they're not comparable.
The Golf is smaller, tiny boot, slower and even the top of the range most expensive at over £42k doesn't come near the Model 3.
Again, the point is, you can spend £2,000 more on a top of the range Golf and it wont come near the model 3 which is bigger, faster and cheaper.

Think the most expensive Golf is the R ( limited edition 20 ) at £40k - high performance, the Model 3 Performance is at £70k

But the entry level Tesla from £39k which is bigger, faster and cheaper than the top of the range Golf at £42k