Slope rating.

[Foxholer]

Slope Rating calculation is :
Bogey Rating minus Course Rating multiplied by 5.381.
So the bigger the difference between the Bogey Player and the Scratch Player, the higher the Slope Rating.
Par is irrelevant in the calculation, even if the Course Rating (scratch player) is assessed as higher than Par.
Here are two examples :
Course 1 Par of 71 has BR 95.4 - CR 72.7 = 22.7 * 5.381 = 122.1 (122)
Course 2 Par of 72 has BR 98.3 - CR 72 = 26.3 * 5.381 = 141.5 (142)
At course 1 the scratch player cannot break par but at course 2 he can play to par.
But because the 20ish* handicapper has a tougher time at course 2, relative to the scratch player, the slope rating is higher.
*If 113 is the ’norm’, shouldn’t the bogey player be described as a 21 handicapper (113 / 5.381 = 20.99)?

I believe you have things somewhat Ar..about face! Forget that 5.381 and simply use CH (cf CR) = HI*Slope/113. Though the results will be the same (1 shot for every 5.381 of Slope over 113)!

113 is the Slope value where a 'Bogey' player and the Scratch player are 'expected' to play to their Handicap Indices (0 and 20-ish. On any course with a Slope rating above 113, the Bogey player is 'expected' to find it tougher to play to their HI - so needs the Slope/113 extra shots!

And, from memory, 'Bogey Player' is described as someone in the range of 17-21, so some (statistical?) leeway.

Remember that Golf scores, therefore handicapping - at least at higher handicap levels, has to use some pretty inconsistent 'input data'! So/And your statement that 'the Scratch player cannot break Par' is twaddle! But, on average, (s)he's not expected to!

 

[rulefan]

And, from memory, 'Bogey Player' is described as someone in the range of 17-21, so some (statistical?) leeway.

21-24

 

[Foxholer]

21-24

Thanks for the correction. Most courses seem 'tougher' than the 113 level, so that makes sense.

 

[BubbaP]

21-24

Not that it matters but this is the R&A definition:

A Slope Rating is calculated using the difference between the Course Rating for a ‘scratch’ golfer (a player with a 0.0 Handicap Index) and the Course Rating for a ‘bogey’ golfer (a player with a Handicap Index of 20.0 to 24.0), and multiplying this by a factor.

 

[Jacko_G]

No. Courses are assessed by 3 or 4 member specially trained Rating Teams. It takes a team 3-4 hours plus nearly as much paperwork.
Have look at this
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/usga-course-rating-system-work/

And is a big steaming pile

 

[BubbaP]

CR for home club is 70.8 par 71 with a 127 slope.

Sister course is 73 par 71 with a 135 slope.
70.8 6250 yards

73 6650 yards
...
Sister course has two tough tee shots the rest are wide open, last year we beat them 7-1 6-2 in the scratch league.

I don't mind as having 2 shots will be huge, but I can't understand how this has come to be based on the course set up other than length.

Some further thoughts.
I could envisage 6650 being a challenge for a fair number of 20+ 'cappers even if open.
Might there be a bit of, the skills of the scratch team of your course just transfer better to the sister course than the other way around. They sound almost opposites and maybe a better judge would be a visitor (from maybe a more neutral course) playing both.
Am curious, the 2 extra shots you mention - was that in the context of a matchplay match, or something else? (I'll admit to trying to guess your index!)

 

[Ssshank]

Some further thoughts.
I could envisage 6650 being a challenge for a fair number of 20+ 'cappers even if open.
Might there be a bit of, the skills of the scratch team of your course just transfer better to the sister course than the other way around. They sound almost opposites and maybe a better judge would be a visitor (from maybe a more neutral course) playing both.
Am curious, the 2 extra shots you mention - was that in the context of a matchplay match, or something else? (I'll admit to trying to guess your index!)

No, we did awful in the scratch league...that was our only away win.

Better players always comment that it's a mickey mouse course and very rarely do they play to their number.

The extra two shots would be my playing handicap 2 at my home course and 4 there.

 

[cliveb]

Is too much emphasis being placed on course length?

Absolutely. The course rating formula places FAR too much emphasis on length. My home course is very short (5650) and has a SS/CR 2 under par. It also has a very low slope (117). But it's tricky as hell and nobody has ever taken it apart. As a result it's very difficult to get a cut and our handicaps travel very well.

 

[BubbaP]

No, we did awful in the scratch league...that was our only away win.

Better players always comment that it's a mickey mouse course and very rarely do they play to their number.

The extra two shots would be my playing handicap 2 at my home course and 4 there.

Worth checking, you need to select the "without course rating minus par" option on the calculator here
https://www.randa.org
Expect you'll be playing 2 on both, but the CR will give you more to play with at the longer/wider one.

 

[rulefan]

And is a big steaming pile of ???

I seem to remember your rating system proposal didn't amount to much.

 

[Ssshank]

Worth checking, you need to select the "without course rating minus par" option on the calculator here
https://www.randa.org
Expect you'll be playing 2 on both, but the CR will give you more to play with at the longer/wider one.

Under what circumstances would course rating not apply?

 

[BubbaP]

Under what circumstances would course rating not apply?

Are you asking about "Without Course Rating minus Par", if so the site states:

Depending on where you are playing your round and/or who you are playing with – you may or may not be required to include Course Rating and Par in this calculation. Check with the golf club, the Committee or the Authorised Association.

I believe the UK the golf associations have chosen the "without" option.

 

[sunshine]

Based on what I've seen so far, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on width off the tee in the rating process.

The narrow and compact courses, even if they are shorter and have flatter greens, seem to attract a higher CR and SR.

My course is fairly wide off the tee. It's often described as a "second shot" golf course as the greens are very tricky and you need to leave yourself a putt below the hole. Typically, visitors really struggle because they don't know the greens, and handicaps at my club supposedly travel well. Looks like this will continue as CR = par = SSS, and the slope index is only 128 which is lower or the same as most other courses in the area.

 

[Ssshank]

Based on what I've seen so far, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on width off the tee in the rating process.

The narrow and compact courses, even if they are shorter and have flatter greens, seem to attract a higher CR and SR.

My course is fairly wide off the tee. It's often described as a "second shot" golf course as the greens are very tricky and you need to leave yourself a putt below the hole. Typically, visitors really struggle because they don't know the greens, and handicaps at my club supposedly travel well. Looks like this will continue as CR = par = SSS, and the slope index is only 128 which is lower or the same as most other courses in the area.

That's what I can't understand.

It's wasn't unusual for the CSS to be 3 above the SSS.

Our course is the opposite; small greens that aren't very tricky apart from a few subtle breaks.

Off the tee it is very demanding, if you aren't swinging well you are guaranteed to make a fair few bogeys.

 

[rulefan]

Are you asking about "Without Course Rating minus Par", if so the site states:

Depending on where you are playing your round and/or who you are playing with – you may or may not be required to include Course Rating and Par in this calculation. Check with the golf club, the Committee or the Authorised Association.

I believe the UK the golf associations have chosen the "without" option.

That is correct.

 

[rulefan]

70.8 6250 yards

73 6650 yards

The difference between the two ratings is virtually all down to the difference in length. Which is basically the same for all cases.
If you think about it, just count the number of straight strokes it would take to get to the green on an open field.
Depending on the length of a
Par 3 - 1 or 2
Par 4 - 2 or 3
Par 5 - 3 or 4
and then 2 putts for all 18.
Look at the length of each hole on each course. Using as a standard distance of a max 250 yards for a drive and 220 for a second shot.
It's not the actual method, just a crude exercise but gives you an idea.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

The difference between the two ratings is virtually all down to the difference in length. Which is basically the same for all cases.
If you think about it, just count the number of straight strokes it would take to get to the green on an open field.
Depending on the length of a
Par 3 - 1 or 2
Par 4 - 2 or 3
Par 5 - 3 or 4
and then 2 putts for all 18.
Look at the length of each hole on each course. Using as a standard distance of a max 250 yards for a drive and 220 for a second shot.
It's not the actual method, just a crude exercise but gives you an idea.

I thought there were multiple factors to consider?

So I guess in the past courses were rated by looking at a scorecard and could be done without an actual visit to the course...

Sounds like a cushy little number to me

 

[Ssshank]

The difference between the two ratings is virtually all down to the difference in length. Which is basically the same for all cases.
If you think about it, just count the number of straight strokes it would take to get to the green on an open field.
Depending on the length of a
Par 3 - 1 or 2
Par 4 - 2 or 3
Par 5 - 3 or 4
and then 2 putts for all 18.
Look at the length of each hole on each course. Using as a standard distance of a max 250 yards for a drive and 220 for a second shot.
It's not the actual method, just a crude exercise but gives you an idea.

I find that ridiculous if that is the case, length ≠ difficulty.

Also, why are we using yardages from the 1970s? most scratch players will hit the ball well over 250 yards.

 

[williamalex1]

More to do with the length of carry required, an old codger like me could lose numerous balls / strokes trying to get over 160 yards of gorse from the tee.

 

[Old Skier]

most scratch players will hit the ball well over 250 yards.

Aaaaaggghhhhhh no please no