Will Slope Ratings be updated?

[rulefan]

Whites are 71.1 and yellows are 69.9 I think.

And what are the respective Slopes and lengths?

 

[rulefan]

I used to play with a lad when I joined and he could never play to his handicap at our place (24), never shot under 98 in a comp then went down to Wallsend and shot an 84 and vowed never to play our course again.

But would that have been before WHS, Handicap Index and Slope appeared?

 

[rudebhoy]

I'm a member at the same course and I'd agree with you, the slope is too high for the yellows imho as off of those a lot of the danger is taken out and the par 3's are a lot easier, it's those that provide a lot of the course protection imho.

I think the white ones are justified compared to other courses I've played, I find our course really tight in the landing areas around 220-250 off the tee and then the narrow greens mean you can't miss by much either side. I've found the team players I've played with are all way longer than that and can usually hit past the narrow areas into spaces that open up a touch more, like at 7 they hit it into the area where the fairway widens, 8 they go over the trees with no issues, 12 they are long enough to easily reach in 2 even into the wind etc.

I used to play with a lad when I joined and he could never play to his handicap at our place (24), never shot under 98 in a comp then went down to Wallsend and shot an 84 and vowed never to play our course again. Off the whites there are quite a few tee shots that high handicap players struggle with like 8,10,13,14 and 16 where you have the tee box not even facing where you want to hit it and trees encroaching. Throw in 5 par 3's where the short one is 160 yards and 3 of them are over 180 yards then I can see why the slope rating is high.

Agree with all of that. It is a lot harder off the whites. The fact that most of us (including me) get the same number of shots on the whites as on the yellows is crazy.

 

[Springveldt]

But would that have been before WHS, Handicap Index and Slope appeared?

Yeah, this was 4 years years ago. His scores kinda confirmed the slope for me though.

And what are the respective Slopes and lengths?

Whites are par 70 cr 71.1 slope 139 and 6329 yards.
Yellows 70 69.9 138 and 6097.

Not the longest course but it’s pretty tight with mostly narrow greens with bunkers either side.

 

[SammmeBee]

Basically it’s all made up bollocks!

 

[rulefan]

Agree with all of that. It is a lot harder off the whites. The fact that most of us (including me) get the same number of shots on the whites as on the yellows is crazy.

With a 200 yard difference in length and Springs description the slope doesn't surprise me. I mentioned 'model' players. It could be that you don't fit the model. As all the obstacle features are still the same, your game may mean that you encounter the obstacles in the same way.

I have just done a very basic calculation and it suggests that your course is rather more difficult than the basic length(s) suggest. Which could explain why the slopes are both comparatively high.

 

[PJ87]

So if course B has a CR of 71.5 compared to our 69.9, does that mean it's rated harder than ours for scratch golfers, but easier for high handicappers? That defies logic, unless I'm missing something which is quite possible!

I agree it defies logic. Imo it's been poorly handled by Golf England

It's a "world" handicap system yet we are applying the formula in different ways

The way we are doing things now is the OLD American system..

The way America does thing now takes course rating into the equation and it does make a difference

Secondly it's been poorly explained. Far far too many people think slope is the key factor which it isn't .. it's course rating that's all important

But do people ask about it much? No just slope

 

[rulefan]

It's a "world" handicap system yet we are applying the formula in different ways

The way we are doing things now is the OLD American system..

The way America does thing now takes course rating into the equation and it does make a difference

Which calculation does the USGA system include Course Rating where the CONGU calculation doesn't?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

So if course B has a CR of 71.5 compared to our 69.9, does that mean it's rated harder than ours for scratch golfers, but easier for high handicappers? That defies logic, unless I'm missing something which is quite possible!

If you imagine a course where all the trouble is at about 260-280, and short of that there is no danger, just wide open fairway with no deep rough . That is easier for the high handicapped player in comparison to the scratch player. Therefore it will have a lower slope.

Another course may have more trouble at say 220 yds. A thus having a higher slope index.

 

[rulefan]

Basically it’s all made up bollocks!

Of course, I seem to remember you have rated a fair number of courses.
But were you happy with the SSS?

 

[Swango1980]

Which calculation does the USGA system include Course Rating where the CONGU calculation doesn't?

The Course Handicap Calculation

 

[Swango1980]

Whites are 71.1 and yellows are 69.9 I think.

Ok, no idea what par is, but let us say it was 71.

In US, your course handicap off whites would be 0.1 higher than it is here. Off yellows 1.1 lower. So, that would likely feel more intuitive. Over here, course handicap ignores that, and accounts for relative difficulty. All in all it is not an issue, as it is the same absolute difference for everyone. But, personally I'd still prefer the way the rest of the world do it.

At my course, yellows is shorter than whites as expected. Slope off whites is 140, off yellows 141. The whites is still harder, hence it has a lower Course Rating. But relative between low and high handicappers, yellows is marginally more relatively difficult for higher handicappers

 

[rulefan]

Ok, no idea what par is, but let us say it was 71.

In US, your course handicap off whites would be 0.1 higher than it is here. Off yellows 1.1 lower. So, that would likely feel more intuitive. Over here, course handicap ignores that, and accounts for relative difficulty. All in all it is not an issue, as it is the same absolute difference for everyone. But, personally I'd still prefer the way the rest of the world do it.

At my course, yellows is shorter than whites as expected. Slope off whites is 140, off yellows 141. The whites is still harder, hence it has a lower Course Rating. But relative between low and high handicappers, yellows is marginally more relatively difficult for higher handicappers

Springveldt
"Whites are par 70 cr 71.1 slope 139 and 6329 yards.
Yellows 70 69.9 138 and 6097."

The Course Handicap Calculation

But only to calculate the difference with par. In this case trivial

 

[Swango1980]

Springveldt
"Whites are par 70 cr 71.1 slope 139 and 6329 yards.
Yellows 70 69.9 138 and 6097."



But only to calculate the difference with par. In this case trivial

To the boffins and those that understand the system, you could say it is irrelevant.

To the regular golfer, it can often mean the difference in several shots when playing at different courses with very different absolute difficulties. I'd imagine this conversation wouldn't even be happening, because although the OP had similar slopes, the absolute difficulty would ultimately be embedded in the course handicap, thus the difference in handicaps more intuitive

 

[rosecott]

Basically it’s all made up bollocks!

The usual insightful comment.

 

[SammmeBee]

The usual insightful comment.

Happy to help…..you’ll be telling us next it’s completely objective with no subjectivity involved at all……

 

[IanM]

"My course us so much harder than etc etc etc "

The usual insightful comment.

Maybe not, but the sentiments are forgivable

 

[Voyager EMH]

Interested to know if the exercise to rate all courses was a one off or will they be reviewed regularly, and if so, how often?

Reason behind the question is our place has been rated as pretty tough - 139 off the whites and 138 off the yellows. It's a tricky course, but not particularly long. I've played a lot of courses which are rated as a good bit easier, but which seem pretty testing to me (I appreciate my local knowledge of our place is a factor here).

I've heard a few comments from guys who play for our teams saying that they really struggle at away courses because of our comparatively high rating.

Well OP, you’ve been given a lot of technical information here. Has any of it changed you concept of “difficulty” of a course? Have you lessened your concern that your course is not rated correctly?

You are concerned with “I get 23 shots” or “I get 21 shots”. This is because you are equating back to the old system. You are equating your Course Handicap to your old handicap when these two things do not equate. The notion of “I get ** shots” is misleading if looked at in isolation and then attempting to equate this back to the old system.

Players have their Handicap Index in their heads and then notice how Slope Rating can result in differing Course Handicaps. Not unreasonable then, to assume Slope Rating is the main factor of difficulty rating of a course when doing this calculation on its own in isolation. Again, doing this in isolation is misleading.

Course Rating will affect your differential or “what I played to” for that score on that day. In calculating “what you played to” both Course Rating and Slope Rating play their part.

I played a course this year where my Course Handicap was 3. The concept of “I get 3 shots” is misleading. I went round in 10 over par. I played to (differential) 5.6. Not bad. This was mainly due to the Course Rating being 2.0 over par and a PCC of +1 on the day. Having a notion of “I get 3 shots” would not have helped me.

The point I am trying to get across to is that it will take time to get used to this new system and have an overall concept and understanding. It is more complicated than what went before. Focussing on one aspect or calculation and trying to equate this back to the old system will not help you or any of us.

Spend some hours (and I really do mean hours) looking at what scores produce what differentials for you at your course compared with another course. Or compare the differentials achieved for the same gross scores, but from the different tees at your course. These differentials are “what you played to” for that score. This will give you a much better concept of “difficulty” of a course.
These “what I played to” scores are the same for everybody (with respect to the net double bogey limit) and will show you what you should be aiming to do as well as what a scratch player should be trying for.

Be prepared to forget the concepts of the old system. It is not coming back. Embrace the new.

 

[Tashyboy]

Like the op I’m interested in the outcome here. We had a tricky p5 when our SR was issued, this hole has since been shorten to 460/480 and made a p4. Unless you’re 260+ off the tee it’s impossible to hit in two with a very tricky green meaning the average score being 5-6 for cat2+. I’m assuming the course will have to request a reassessment for this?

What was the thought process behind shortening the hole. Genuinely interested, and did they change the Stroke index of said hole.

 

[jim8flog]

Basically it’s all made up bollocks!

very astute and well worked out comment