Will Slope Ratings be updated?

[rudebhoy]

Interested to know if the exercise to rate all courses was a one off or will they be reviewed regularly, and if so, how often?

Reason behind the question is our place has been rated as pretty tough - 139 off the whites and 138 off the yellows. It's a tricky course, but not particularly long. I've played a lot of courses which are rated as a good bit easier, but which seem pretty testing to me (I appreciate my local knowledge of our place is a factor here).

I've heard a few comments from guys who play for our teams saying that they really struggle at away courses because of our comparatively high rating.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

If you’re talking difficulty, isn’t it the course rating that should be reviewed?
slope is the difference in difficulty between scratch and high handicapped players, isn’t it?

 

[rudebhoy]

If you’re talking difficulty, isn’t it the course rating that should be reviewed?
slope is the difference in difficulty between scratch and high handicapped players, isn’t it?

Not really, I'm most interested on how it impacts the majority of our members (who are not off scratch) when they go to play at away courses. To take me as an example, my HI index is 19.0, if I play off the yellows at our place, I get 23 shots. When I play at any of the local courses which I'd consider to be of a similar standard, I generally get 21 shots.

I've had a quick scan through the courses in my county, and can only see one which has the same slope rating as our place which doesn't seem right.

 

[YandaB]

Not really, I'm most interested on how it impacts the majority of our members (who are not off scratch) when they go to play at away courses. To take me as an example, my HI index is 19.0, if I play off the yellows at our place, I get 23 shots. When I play at any of the local courses which I'd consider to be of a similar standard, I generally get 21 shots.

I've had a quick scan through the courses in my county, and can only see one which has the same slope rating as our place which doesn't seem right.

Course rating still matters whether you are off scratch or not, what are the CR's for these other courses?

 

[Oddsocks]

Like the op I’m interested in the outcome here. We had a tricky p5 when our SR was issued, this hole has since been shorten to 460/480 and made a p4. Unless you’re 260+ off the tee it’s impossible to hit in two with a very tricky green meaning the average score being 5-6 for cat2+. I’m assuming the course will have to request a reassessment for this?

 

[rudebhoy]

Course rating still matters whether you are off scratch or not, what are the CR's for these other courses?

Ours is 69.9 off the yellows, par 70, slope rating 138, I get 23 shots.

The course I'd say we are very similar to has a course rating of 71.5. It's a par 71, slope rating 127, I get 21 shots there.

 

[jim8flog]

Like the op I’m interested in the outcome here. We had a tricky p5 when our SR was issued, this hole has since been shorten to 460/480 and made a p4. Unless you’re 260+ off the tee it’s impossible to hit in two with a very tricky green meaning the average score being 5-6 for cat2+. I’m assuming the course will have to request a reassessment for this?

If this is a permanent change then-

ii) Permanent Changes
A golf club must notify the Authorized Association when permanent changes
are made to a golf course. Permanent changes to the golf course require the
Authorized Association to review the current Course Rating and Slope Rating
and to determine whether a re-rating is necessary.

 

[jim8flog]

Interested to know if the exercise to rate all courses was a one off or will they be reviewed regularly, and if so, how often?

Reason behind the question is our place has been rated as pretty tough - 139 off the whites and 138 off the yellows. It's a tricky course, but not particularly long. I've played a lot of courses which are rated as a good bit easier, but which seem pretty testing to me (I appreciate my local knowledge of our place is a factor here).

I've heard a few comments from guys who play for our teams saying that they really struggle at away courses because of our comparatively high rating.

a. General
An Authorized Association is responsible for determining and issuing Course
Ratings and Slope Ratings for all of the golf courses within its jurisdiction (see
definition of golf course).
Course Ratings must be reviewed periodically and revised and reissued as
necessary. New golf courses can change frequently during the first years after
construction and must be re-rated within five years of the initial rating date.
Thereafter, golf courses must be re-rated at least once every 10 years.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Ours is 69.9 off the yellows, par 70, slope rating 138, I get 23 shots.

The course I'd say we are very similar to has a course rating of 71.5. It's a par 71, slope rating 127, I get 21 shots there.

I think you will find that unless you are playing in a tournament simultaneously over the two courses, it won't matter that you get more or less shots on the two courses, as everyone playing will get the relevant stroke rating change in shots.

 

[rulefan]

Not really, I'm most interested on how it impacts the majority of our members (who are not off scratch) when they go to play at away courses. To take me as an example, my HI index is 19.0, if I play off the yellows at our place, I get 23 shots. When I play at any of the local courses which I'd consider to be of a similar standard, I generally get 21 shots.

I've had a quick scan through the courses in my county, and can only see one which has the same slope rating as our place which doesn't seem right.

Both Course Rating and Slope affect all your players one way or the other. The figures are inseparable. You cannot compare one course with another without knowing both unless you are only comparing scratch players. A scratch player will find course A with a CR of 68, 6 shots easier than course B with a CR of 74. In their case Slope is irrelevant.

Slope only gives you information about a particular course. It tells you the relative difficulty for a lower handicapper as opposed to a higher handicapper on that course only.
So a course with a Slope of 125 may or may not be more difficult than another course with a slope of 120. It depend on the Course Rating and the player's handicap.

Your Slope Ratings of 139 & 138 are pretty high but they only tell you that the course is much more difficult for higher handicappers as opposed to a low capper on that course.

Your Course Handicap is = Handicap Index x (Slope/113)
ie
19 x 138/113 = 23
19 x 127/113 = 21

However, the judgement on how well you play on these two courses is by reference to the Course Rating (ie your Score Differential)
which is (Gross Score - Course Rating) x (113/Slope Rating)
ie
(93 - 69.9) x (113/139) = 18.8
(93 - 71.5) x (113/127) = 19.1

So on both courses hitting to 93 would be playing to handicap

 

[rudebhoy]

Both Course Rating and Slope affect all your players one way or the other. The figures are inseparable. You cannot compare one course with another without knowing both unless you are only comparing scratch players. A scratch player will find course A with a CR of 68, 6 shots easier than course B with a CR of 74. In their case Slope is irrelevant.

Slope only gives you information about a particular course. It tells you the relative difficulty for a lower handicapper as opposed to a higher handicapper on that course only.
So a course with a Slope of 125 may or may not be more difficult than another course with a slope of 120. It depend on the Course Rating and the player's handicap.

Your Slope Ratings of 139 & 138 are pretty high but they only tell you that the course is much more difficult for higher handicappers as opposed to a low capper on that course.

Your Course Handicap is = Handicap Index x (Slope/113)
ie
19 x 138/113 = 23
19 x 127/113 = 21

However, the judgement on how well you play on these two courses is by reference to the Course Rating (ie your Score Differential)
which is (Gross Score - Course Rating) x (113/Slope Rating)
ie
(93 - 69.9) x (113/139) = 18.8
(93 - 71.5) x (113/127) = 19.1

So on both courses hitting to 93 would be playing to handicap

So if course B has a CR of 71.5 compared to our 69.9, does that mean it's rated harder than ours for scratch golfers, but easier for high handicappers? That defies logic, unless I'm missing something which is quite possible!

 

[moogie]

Not really, I'm most interested on how it impacts the majority of our members (who are not off scratch) when they go to play at away courses. To take me as an example, my HI index is 19.0, if I play off the yellows at our place, I get 23 shots. When I play at any of the local courses which I'd consider to be of a similar standard, I generally get 21 shots.

I've had a quick scan through the courses in my county, and can only see one which has the same slope rating as our place which doesn't seem right.

I've just looked and was very surprised to see I'd get 2 extra shots at your place compared to what I get at my home club @ Matfen Hall
But also how it rates compared to some other local courses too

So do you think you get too many shots at your place......or not enough at the others.....??

 

[rudebhoy]

I've just looked and was very surprised to see I'd get 2 extra shots at your place compared to what I get at my home club @ Matfen Hall
But also how it rates compared to some other local courses too

So do you think you get too many shots at your place......or not enough at the others.....??

Good question! I'd argue the latter, but a case could definitely be made for the former.

 

[HeftyHacker]

So if course B has a CR of 71.5 compared to our 69.9, does that mean it's rated harder than ours for scratch golfers, but easier for high handicappers? That defies logic, unless I'm missing something which is quite possible!

I think Rulefans second paragraph nails it.

"Slope only gives you information about a particular course. It tells you the relative difficulty for a lower handicapper as opposed to a higher handicapper on that course only."

So you almost have to view the two things separately. Some courses may play much harder for higher handicappers due to the placement of hazards etc that simply aren't an issue for scratch golfers as they aren't in play. Ie fairway bunkers at 220 yards will likely worry a higher handicapper and force them to lay up, leaving a long iron in, but most scratch golfers will simply go straight over the top and have a wedge in.

Ordinarily though a higher course rating will generally mean a higher slope rating as well but the two aren't dependent on each other, and are not necessarily comparable across different courses.

The scary ones are the ones with course ratings a few shots above par AND slope ratings of 140 plus as you know they'll be brutal!

Eg Birkdale championship
par 70, CR 75.7, slope 140!

 

[rulefan]

So if course B has a CR of 71.5 compared to our 69.9, does that mean it's rated harder than ours for scratch golfers, but easier for high handicappers? That defies logic, unless I'm missing something which is quite possible!

It is rated harder (in absolute terms) for scratch players.
BUT it is the Slope of a particular course that tells you the relative difficulty of that course for a higher capper compared with a scratch player on that course.

When courses are rated they are done for a 'model' scratch player and a 'model' bogey player (ie about 20-22ish cap). These are called Course Rating & Bogey Rating. In effect, the difference is the Slope. The actual calculation (done behind the scenes) is different for men and women. Take the difference between the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating and multiply by 5.382 (for men ( or 4.24 (for women).
Imagine a graph. X axis is handicap, Y axis is rating. At handicap 0 mark the Y axis with the CR. At handicap 21 mark the Y axis with the BR. Draw a line between the marks. That is the slope. This is not an actual calculation but just indicates why is is called a slope.

So if two courses are rated at 71.5 say. They are both as difficult as each other for the scratch player only.
If course A has a slope of 120 it tells you that it is more difficult for a bogey player than a scratch player.
If course B has a slope of 130 it tells you that it is even more difficult for a bogey player than a scratch player.

Now if the two courses are rated at 72.8 and 68.3 say. B is easier for the scratch player only.
If course A has a slope of 120 it tells you that it is more difficult for a bogey player than a scratch player.
If course B has a slope of 130 it tells you that it is even more difficult for a bogey player than a scratch player.
BUT it doesn't tell you which is the more difficult for the bogey player

If that isn't enough, try this
https://www.liveabout.com/slope-rating-at-golf-courses-1561295

Edit: In fact I suggest you read the link first!!

 

[Swango1980]

So if course B has a CR of 71.5 compared to our 69.9, does that mean it's rated harder than ours for scratch golfers, but easier for high handicappers? That defies logic, unless I'm missing something which is quite possible!

Not quite, because it is all relative.

Take a standardish course. Course X

Then go to Course A. It is an open course, but many of the holes have water around 220-260 yards from the tee. This course is relatively harder than Course X for scratch golfers, because the water is in their landing zone. They will need to lay up, thus eliminating their advantage off the tee. This will give a higher course rating than Course X. But, the water is too far away to bother higher handicappers off the tee, so has a lesser effect. So, the Bogey Rating may be lower at this course than Course X, thus providing a lower Slope.

Then go to Course B. It is an narrow course, and many of the holes have water that require 150-200 yard carry from the tee. The course may be as tough, or a little tougher than Course X (as I didn't define much about that course), so the Course Rating may be roughly the same, a bit higher possibly than Course X. Basically, the water does not really hurt the lower handicappers, as they can drive over it. However, these holes are extremely difficult for the higher handicappers, who will struggle to carry the water on all these holes. So, the Bogey Rating could be much higher than Course X. This would result in a high Slope (remember, the slope is simply a function of the difference between Course and Bogey Rating). So, although the course may not be relatively much more difficult for scratch players, it is relatively more difficult for higher handicappers, compared to Course X.

Just a very basic example. Generally speaking, the relative difficulty between low and high handicappers goes up for longer courses. However, the set up of the course can have a big impact at times. In my experience, I've gone to links courses locally, that are, in absolute terms, very difficult to play. Especially for low handicappers. However, because they are also very open, and wayward players can potentially get away with bad shots, they are not necessarily relatively more difficult for higher handicappers, and therefore the Slope is not as high as some people think it should be (when they mistakenly think Slope reflects absolute difficulty). In effect, although it is still absolutely harder for the high handicapper than the low handicapper (i.e. the high handicapper is not expected to shoot a better gross score than the lower handicapper), the difference between their handicaps will be lower as the slope is lower.

In other nations, like the US, they factor in CR-Par into the course handicap calculation, and so golfers typically see the changes to their handicap that they expect (because their course handicap takes into account both absolute and relative difficulty). In UK that is not the case, so you still need to compare your final score to the Course Rating of the course, not Par.

 

[rulefan]

you still need to compare your final score to the Course Rating of the course, not Par.

That's a good point

 

[Springveldt]

Good question! I'd argue the latter, but a case could definitely be made for the former.

I'm a member at the same course and I'd agree with you, the slope is too high for the yellows imho as off of those a lot of the danger is taken out and the par 3's are a lot easier, it's those that provide a lot of the course protection imho.

I think the white ones are justified compared to other courses I've played, I find our course really tight in the landing areas around 220-250 off the tee and then the narrow greens mean you can't miss by much either side. I've found the team players I've played with are all way longer than that and can usually hit past the narrow areas into spaces that open up a touch more, like at 7 they hit it into the area where the fairway widens, 8 they go over the trees with no issues, 12 they are long enough to easily reach in 2 even into the wind etc.

I used to play with a lad when I joined and he could never play to his handicap at our place (24), never shot under 98 in a comp then went down to Wallsend and shot an 84 and vowed never to play our course again. Off the whites there are quite a few tee shots that high handicap players struggle with like 8,10,13,14 and 16 where you have the tee box not even facing where you want to hit it and trees encroaching. Throw in 5 par 3's where the short one is 160 yards and 3 of them are over 180 yards then I can see why the slope rating is high.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm a member at the same course and I'd agree with you, the slope is too high for the yellows imho as off of those a lot of the danger is taken out and the par 3's are a lot easier, it's those that provide a lot of the course protection imho.

I think the white ones are justified compared to other courses I've played, I find our course really tight in the landing areas around 220-250 off the tee and then the narrow greens mean you can't miss by much either side. I've found the team players I've played with are all way longer than that and can usually hit past the narrow areas into spaces that open up a touch more, like at 7 they hit it into the area where the fairway widens, 8 they go over the trees with no issues, 12 they are long enough to easily reach in 2 even into the wind etc.

I used to play with a lad when I joined and he could never play to his handicap at our place (24), never shot under 98 in a comp then went down to Wallsend and shot an 84 and vowed never to play our course again. Off the whites there are quite a few tee shots that high handicap players struggle with like 8,10,13,14 and 16 where you have the tee box not even facing where you want to hit it and trees encroaching. Throw in 5 par 3's where the short one is 160 yards and 3 of them are over 180 yards then I can see why the slope rating is high.

What is the difference between the course ratings for your white and yellow tees?

 

[Springveldt]

What is the difference between the course ratings for your white and yellow tees?

Whites are 71.1 and yellows are 69.9 I think.