Course & Slope Rating discussion points

[sunshine]

Course Handicap = Handicap Index x Slope Rating.
Playing Handicap = Course Handicap x handicap allowance (eg 95%)

No mention of Course Rating (or par)

It's the interplay between CR and SR where I am struggling. I know that SR is not an absolute measure of difficulty but rather relative difficulty compared to a scratch golfer.

Imagine 2 courses, both par 70, both slope rating 130. This doesn't mean they are the same difficulty. One could have a CR of 69 and the other a CR of 72. The second course is tougher for everyone, but not relatively tougher for a bogey golfer?

 

[ScienceBoy]

Have you previously adjusted your 18 hole handicap for playing just 9 holes?

Yes, played off 16 and halved it to give 8. Its all just for fun and nothing official. All done in Golfshot free app.

 

[BubbaP]

It's the interplay between CR and SR where I am struggling. I know that SR is not an absolute measure of difficulty but rather relative difficulty compared to a scratch golfer.

Imagine 2 courses, both par 70, both slope rating 130. This doesn't mean they are the same difficulty. One could have a CR of 69 and the other a CR of 72. The second course is tougher for everyone, but not relatively tougher for a bogey golfer?

May come down to your definition of tougher. This post has a similar example, does it help?
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251

 

[Tashyboy]

Looking forward to when a list of slope ratings come out for each county so one can compare. ?

 

[BubbaP]

Looking forward to when a list of slope ratings come out for each county so one can compare. ?

https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup

 

[rulefan]

Looking forward to when a list of slope ratings come out for each county so one can compare. ?

or https://ncrdb.usga.org/
which has been around for ages

 

[Tashyboy]

https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup

Many thanks Iain me man

 

[Tashyboy]

or https://ncrdb.usga.org/
which has been around for ages

Cheers rulefan. Having a good peruse looking at the clubs around me ??

 

[Jacko_G]

While the outdated stupid ill informed way of course rating remains their will always be errors in the way the slope is calculated.

 

[rulefan]

While the outdated stupid ill informed way of course rating remains their will always be errors in the way the slope is calculated.

Why 'stupid' and 'ill informed'? What do you mean exactly?

How would you propose it is done?

 

[Crazyface]

doublebogey7 said:
Though at the lower rated course you would need fewer Stableford Points to play to your handicap.


And here is the whole problem in a bluddy nutshell. Utter conkers!

The statement should be :-

You won't have to play as well to gain the stableford points to play to your handicap.

Once people start to think like this, all these stupid questions and threads will stop.

 

[rulefan]

ok, but what do you add the playing handicap to? Par or CR?

For competition purposes your Playing Handicap is subtracted from your gross score (adjusted for net double bogeys) to give your competition net score.
For handicap purposes your Course Handicap is subtracted from your gross score (adjusted for net double bogeys) to give your net score. This is ultimately used to calculate your Handicap Index.

Par is not used. Nor is it used in CONGU. Your score is reduced by the SSS/CSS.

Par is only used in stableford to determine the number of points and in medals to determine net double bogey.

 

[doublebogey7]

For competition purposes your Playing Handicap is subtracted from your gross score (adjusted for net double bogeys) to give your competition net score.
For handicap purposes your Course Handicap is subtracted from your gross score (adjusted for net double bogeys) to give your net score. This is ultimately used to calculate your Handicap Index.

Par is not used. Nor is it used in CONGU. Your score is reduced by the SSS/CSS.

Par is only used in stableford to determine the number of points and in medals to determine net double bogey.

Isn't your HI calculated from your GROSS score (after adjustment for net double bogey).

 

[rulefan]

Isn't your HI calculated from your GROSS score (after adjustment for net double bogey).

Not quite. In effect, the Course Rating is subtracted from your gross to give the net. It is then 'de-sloped' to compensate for the strokes you received when determining your Course handicap. That produces your Score Differential and ultimately the Handicap Index

The two important formulae are :-

before play ------ Course Handicap = HI x (Slope/113)
and
after play -------- Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (adj Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

The bold brackets are described as 'Sloping' and 'De-sloping'.

HI is the average of the best 8 SDs from the last 20 scores

 

[Jacko_G]

Why 'stupid' and 'ill informed'? What do you mean exactly?

How would you propose it is done?

What is average conditions? What is average wind speed?

Who says a bogey golfer only hits it X distance and the bunkers or in play? Who says the scratch golfer only hits it Y distance. All variables and utter nonsense. One of my playing partners carries his hybrid longer than my driver! We all know handicap golfers who hit it longer than scratch golfers.

Why only assess size and depth of a bunker and not the condition, sand, amount of sand that's also a huge variable.

Phycological effect of the hole - geez peace certain holes suit someone's eye while it won't suit another person..

Last week at The Machrie strong winds coming from a different direction every day. Assess the average wind and direction. Not possible without introducing huge variables.

Roll, dogleg, forced lay up all decided by a pathetic outdated system that is inaccurate, by deciding X golfer only hits it a determined length introduces a variable based on perception not actual fact. The system dismisses the fact that golfers will take risks, can carry the ball way longer than the pre determined outdated distance the "rating" uses.

Sadly people who do this congratulate themselves and think they're doing a good job. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

What is average conditions? What is average wind speed?

Who says a bogey golfer only hits it X distance and the bunkers or in play? Who says the scratch golfer only hits it Y distance. All variables and utter nonsense. One of my playing partners carries his hybrid longer than my driver! We all know handicap golfers who hit it longer than scratch golfers.

Why only assess size and depth of a bunker and not the condition, sand, amount of sand that's also a huge variable.

Phycological effect of the hole - geez peace certain holes suit someone's eye while it won't suit another person..

Last week at The Machrie strong winds coming from a different direction every day. Assess the average wind and direction. Not possible without introducing huge variables.

Roll, dogleg, forced lay up all decided by a pathetic outdated system that is inaccurate, by deciding X golfer only hits it a determined length introduces a variable based on perception not actual fact. The system dismisses the fact that golfers will take risks, can carry the ball way longer than the pre determined outdated distance the "rating" uses.

Sadly people who do this congratulate themselves and think they're doing a good job. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I was having a very similar discussion with my physio earlier this afternoon

 

[rulefan]

What is average conditions? What is average wind speed?

Who says a bogey golfer only hits it X distance and the bunkers or in play? Who says the scratch golfer only hits it Y distance. All variables and utter nonsense. One of my playing partners carries his hybrid longer than my driver! We all know handicap golfers who hit it longer than scratch golfers.

Why only assess size and depth of a bunker and not the condition, sand, amount of sand that's also a huge variable.

Phycological effect of the hole - geez peace certain holes suit someone's eye while it won't suit another person..

Last week at The Machrie strong winds coming from a different direction every day. Assess the average wind and direction. Not possible without introducing huge variables.


Roll, dogleg, forced lay up all decided by a pathetic outdated system that is inaccurate, by deciding X golfer only hits it a determined length introduces a variable based on perception not actual fact. The system dismisses the fact that golfers will take risks, can carry the ball way longer than the pre determined outdated distance the "rating" uses.

Sadly people who do this congratulate themselves and think they're doing a good job. Sorry to burst your bubble.

A more interesting response would be to specify an alternative system.

However, have you ever studied the reasoning in the explanation of the USGA rating system?

 

[Jacko_G]

A more interesting response would be to specify an alternative system.

However, have you ever studied the reasoning in the explanation of the USGA rating system?

Having researched this idiotic system and having raised it at the assessors seminar the response I got from SG was its the way it is because. They wouldn't enter into any debate.

Blind leading the blind. The fact you can only try and defend it shows how far its ingrained into the system.

 

[rulefan]

Having researched this idiotic system and having raised it at the assessors seminar the response I got from SG was its the way it is because. They wouldn't enter into any debate.

Blind leading the blind. The fact you can only try and defend it shows how far its ingrained into the system.

But you still haven't made any constructive suggestions as to how it should be done.

 

[Jacko_G]

But you still haven't made any constructive suggestions as to how it should be done.

The thing is I'm not in the position yo do anything about it and when I questioned brought up the nonsense system I was told its the way it is.

Sadly people in authority just act like sheep instead of seeing the bigger picture and the failures.