Slope rating.

[Ssshank]

Is too much emphasis being placed on course length?

I'm baffled as to how these course slopes have come to be, the sister course of my club is rated 133 despite playing far easier than my course at 127.

They always struggle to play around our track, but when our members play their comps they usually win.

How accurate do you think these ratings are?

 

[BubbaP]

See if this helps you at all
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251

You haven't mentioned the course ratings

 

[Ethan]

You are about to hear this a lot. Slope is not a measure of absolute course difficulty. That is the Course Rating. Slope is a measure of relative course difficulty for higher vs lower handicappers. A course that is piss easy for lower players but tough for higher could have a lower slope than one which is pretty tricky for both.

 

[Ssshank]

See if this helps you at all
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251

You haven't mentioned the course ratings

The course rating is also higher, my playing handicap would be two shots greater than at my home club.

It's wide open, one of the easiest courses near me. it's baffling.

 

[Ssshank]

You are about to hear this a lot. Slope is not a measure of absolute course difficulty. That is the Course Rating. Slope is a measure of relative course difficulty for higher vs lower handicappers. A course that is piss easy for lower players but tough for higher could have a lower slope than one which is pretty tricky for both.

The course rating is a shot higher, though better players should be shooting below their handicap there. It's wide open off the tew with few hazards in play.

 

[BubbaP]

Sounds like your course may continue to maintain handicaps that "travel well"

I have some agreement with the OP's original question, I felt the course I play at could have been rated higher on both ratings and started a thread (below). I guess we'll just have to give it time and see
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/course-slope-rating-discussion-points.107047/post-2250063

 

[Ethan]

The course rating is a shot higher, though better players should be shooting below their handicap there. It's wide open off the tew with few hazards in play.

There should also be a bogey rating, which is what the course rating for the 20 handicapper. Slope is calculated based on the difference (a slope if plotted on a graph) between the two. Long open courses tend to suit lower handicappers, especially if there are a few carries off the tee needed, so slope is often high on those for the higher players who can't reach some holes in regulation or make the caries.

 

[Foxholer]

Is too much emphasis being placed on course length?

I'm baffled as to how these course slopes have come to be, the sister course of my club is rated 133 despite playing far easier than my course at 127.

They always struggle to play around our track, but when our members play their comps they usually win.

How accurate do you think these ratings are?

Depends on playing level!

Remember Course Rating is 'difficulty' for a Scratch player, while Slope is the relative difficulty for as 'Bogey' (20-ish capper) player.
So 2 distinct metrics!

Slope doesn't define fundamental difficulty!

FWIW . What are the CRs and Slopes for the 2 courses? No need to mention course names.

There are 'other aberrations' in the system also. It seems to me that links courses have not had sufficient allowance made for their 'unique conditions'! While on a calm day, the CR and Slope likely reflect actual difficulty, but Links and 'calm days' are normally mutually exclusive terms!

 

[Ssshank]

There should also be a bogey rating, which is what the course rating for the 20 handicapper. Slope is calculated based on the difference (a slope if plotted on a graph) between the two. Long open courses tend to suit lower handicappers, especially if there are a few carries off the tee needed, so slope is often high on those for the higher players who can't reach some holes in regulation or make the caries.

Are these figures taken from previous rounds played?

My home course isn't the longest but it's brutal off the tee especially when warm. For example last year 16 over won club champs.

The bogey rating is also greater. which I can understand as length is a greater factor for less able players, though a scratch player would find our sister course far easier but the data says otherwise.

 

[Ssshank]

Depends on playing level!

Remember Course Rating is 'difficulty' for a Scratch player, while Slope is the relative difficulty for as 'Bogey' (20-ish capper) player.
So 2 distinct metrics!

Slope doesn't define fundamental difficulty!

FWIW . What are the CRs and Slopes for the 2 courses? No need to mention course names.

CR for home club is 70.8 par 71 with a 127 slope.

Sister course is 73 par 71 with a 135 slope.

 

[Foxholer]

...
My home course isn't the longest but it's brutal off the tee especially when warm. For example last year 16 over won club champs.

The bogey rating is also greater. which I can understand as length is a greater factor for less able players, though a scratch player would find our sister course far easier but the data says otherwise.

CR for home club is 70.8 par 71 with a 127 slope.

Sister course is 73 par 71 with a 135 slope.

That would indicate Slope assessment was that Sister course was more difficult for both Scratch AND (even moreso for) Bogey players!
I would suspect that it's merely the 'brutal off the tee' nature that you have got used to (or handicaps have been affected by) thatm is the difference when you play your sister club. I've always found that Clubs where I've been a competitive member have handicaps have 'travelled well' - for various reasons!

 

[rulefan]

Are these figures taken from previous rounds played?

No. Courses are assessed by 3 or 4 member specially trained Rating Teams. It takes a team 3-4 hours plus nearly as much paperwork.
Have look at this
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/usga-course-rating-system-work/

 

[Foxholer]

If the Slope is nothing to do with a scratch handicap, why are scratch handicap score differentials then multiplied by an equation that divides 113 by the Slope? ? ?‍

Try doing the arithmetic (math for Yanks)! You should find that CR+(HI*Slope/113) = CR! At least for Scratch players!
What do you mean be Scratch Handicap Differentials?!

 

[Ssshank]

No. Courses are assessed by 3 or 4 member specially trained Rating Teams. It takes a team 3-4 hours plus nearly as much paperwork.
Have look at this
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/usga-course-rating-system-work/

Based on those metrics, I can't understand how they've rated it how they have.

There are 12 tee shots that you can lose a ball on, three of which have internal out of bounds.

One is a 450-yard par 4 where the fairway is pitched at a 90-degree angle, where you hit through a tunnel of trees.

Sister course has two tough tee shots the rest are wide open, last year we beat them 7-1 6-2 in the scratch league.

I don't mind as having 2 shots will be huge, but I can't understand how this has come to be based on the course set up other than length.

 

[williamalex1]

So you've made up an answer without understanding the question ?‍?

He's known as Foxy for a reason

 

[rulefan]

Based on those metrics, I can't understand how they've rated it how they have.

There are 12 tee shots that you can lose a ball on, three of which have internal out of bounds.

One is a 450-yard par 4 where the fairway is pitched at a 90-degree angle, where you hit through a tunnel of trees.

Sister course has two tough tee shots the rest are wide open, last year we beat them 7-1 6-2 in the scratch league.

I don't mind as having 2 shots will be huge, but I can't understand how this has come to be based on the course set up other than length.

What is the length of both and the Course Rating?

 

[woofers]

Slope Rating calculation is :
Bogey Rating minus Course Rating multiplied by 5.381.
So the bigger the difference between the Bogey Player and the Scratch Player, the higher the Slope Rating.
Par is irrelevant in the calculation, even if the Course Rating (scratch player) is assessed as higher than Par.
Here are two examples :
Course 1 Par of 71 has BR 95.4 - CR 72.7 = 22.7 * 5.381 = 122.1 (122)
Course 2 Par of 72 has BR 98.3 - CR 72 = 26.3 * 5.381 = 141.5 (142)
At course 1 the scratch player cannot break par but at course 2 he can play to par.
But because the 20ish* handicapper has a tougher time at course 2, relative to the scratch player, the slope rating is higher.
*If 113 is the ’norm’, shouldn’t the bogey player be described as a 21 handicapper (113 / 5.381 = 20.99)?

 

[Ssshank]

What is the length of both and the Course Rating?

70.8 6250 yards

73 6650 yards

 

[Foxholer]

So you've made up an answer without understanding the question ?‍?

Er..I don't believe so!
Do you actually understand the basis/how the Slope/WHS system works?
From your reply, it doesn't appear that you do!

 

[Foxholer]

...
One is a 450-yard par 4 where the fairway is pitched at a 90-degree angle, where you hit through a tunnel of trees.
...

That would be a (sheer) cliff! So I cannot believe that's the case! Dogleg perhap, but not 'pitched'!